Do We Really Need College?

I know, dude. All right, guys. Welcome uh welcome to episode two of uh two docs, one mic. This is Adil and my friend Hayo. Uh here we are number two. Yeah, our our intro kind of became like a Joe Rogan intro where we were just talking. It wasn't meant to be like that. But uh you caught me off guard by hitting record before I knew you were ready. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But uh how's your week been, man? Uh week has been good. It's been a standard week, you know. Um today was a clinic day.

Yesterday was surgeries. Um, so it's been decent. Pretty standard. Nothing nothing too special. Yeah. You living the dream, you think? Someone's dream. Everything you imagined uh medicine to be when we set off on our journeys back in the day. Yeah. You think it's it's all that it uh you know uh you thought it would be? You know, good question. I mean, in some respects, yes, it is cool. It is fun. Um fulfilling. In some it's you know, frustrating.

uh which I guess is the nature of any job, any any lifestyle. Um but it is funny, you know, to kind of think back when we were in, I don't know, high school, college, we're thinking about becoming doctors and embarking on this path. Um what we thought it would be like at that time and you know, pursuing the whole premed dream and the premed route and then uh being here now. Uh it's just it's different. It is uh you know it's something you just wish for so much.

you know, you're you're in high school, I just only if I could just get into a good college.

And then when you're in college, you're like, "Oh my god, I just need to do well on the MCAT and get a decent GPA." And then you're like, "Oh, I just wish I could get the MCAT, you know, I can't wait till that one day I'm a physician." Uh, and then you just kind of, you know, have this fantasy in your head that, you know, being a physician is, uh, you know, which, don't get me wrong, I mean, I think being a physician is great and I love it.

I love my job and I love what I do, but there's a lot of uh frustrations. The the the dream is is there and I I I really enjoy what I do. I like helping people. I like uh uh you know, but the question is is it truly worth doing for anyone? Uh you know, for I think it is for me it's been but uh is it for everyone? I don't know. Uh I could not have predicted the work environment of a physician uh when I was starting out.

uh could not have predicted what practice means, what what does it mean to be, you know, going through residency, what does it mean to be going through fellowship. That's a vision I did not have. I had a a dream vision that I wanted to go through, but but it's funny thinking back to uh the high school days. The high school is a blur. I feel like life truly started when went off to college, right? Yeah.

I mean, you know, in high school everything is so insulated and your time is very accounted for.

I think you know you it's regimented you have to go to school for a blank amount of time you know you have your sports or extracurriculars of choice after that you come home you do your homework you have dinner with your parents maybe hang out with friends maybe not during a school night and then you go home go to bed and you do it again you know but when you're in college the freedom freedom to pick your own schedule to go to class not go to class all of that stuff so I agree with you I think once you get into college and you're so called on on your own.

That really makes a big difference. And that's kind of when I don't know, I think a lot of these decisions when you're in high school and you're kind of thinking, what do I want to be when I grow up? It's such a common question, you know, that your uh adults around you ask, your parents, friends will ask you, your school counselors will ask you. I mean, you have no idea. And when you get to college, you're like, "Ah, I don't I still don't know, but I'm kind of comfortable maybe not knowing, bro.

I still don't know." I know, right?

But that's kind of you know what you were what you were mentioning earlier like you know you just want to get into good college then you want to do well on like the MCAT then just get into med school just get into residency I think during that whole process of training there's always something that you're striving towards right some end goal something you're looking forward to and you do it you accomplish it and you move on to the next step so you kind of finish one little block and you're on to the next once you are in practice it there is no next step like the rotation doesn't end you know you don't finish your internal medicine rotation and go off to general surgery next for two more months and then switch to a different thing.

You don't stop doing shoulder surgery now. Now you do ankle surgery. It there is it's just life. It's just practice. Um which is very different. And I agree with you. It was very hard to estimate um what the average day-to-day life and the day-to-day um challenges would be as an attending physician compared to when I was in training. It's very different. Yeah.

You know, it's uh funny, but you know, in a sense, we're lucky as physicians, as medical trainees, we have a pretty set regimen of how we want to kind of uh our career path is pretty set for us, right? I mean, every premed knows that in college, they have to get a certain GPA, take the MCAT, then the next step is med school, the next step is residency, the next step is fellowship or other further training. Then after that is when you truly learn what it means to create your own path.

And it's kind of you know I think creating your own path is a skill. That's what differentiates uh uh one physician from another one successful person from another in the real world. I mean you know someone who comes out of college at 22 they have to create their own path. They have to find a job. They have to think of a career. We are shielded from that in our 30s uh or in our sorry in our 20s. Uh we're shielded from that.

We don't we don't have that responsibility of choosing and grabbing on the opportunities we get. Yeah, there are opportunities that come, but they're still pretty regimented. Okay, this research project or um you know, this um our biggest decisions are usually made for us, you know, matching where we're going to go do our training there. We don't make that decision, unfortunately.

We rank places, we interview places, but in the end, it's up to the the forces at large to decide what are we going to do and where we going to go. It's uh it's good or good and bad in a way. Uh I think we're we're shielded from a lot of the make your own path kind of skills in our 20s that a lot of people learn and develop careers, make maybe start businesses and uh maybe get into different fields that they might enjoy. And for us, we're on this train and you can't get off the train sometimes.

If you get off the train, that's a big big life change, you know. Um so but you know did you in college I mean what was I I think both of us had very similar uh similar path similar paths but very different in certain ways right um you went to TCU right I went to Texas&M and uh I'm an Aggie like I mentioned a thing in the last episode I'm going to keep mentioning that gig them baby gigum right yeah but here's the thing you know there's a debate now uh are colleges worth it?

I mean you know what what does a college education mean? And for me, you know, I truly don't remember what I learned in college in in the classes, guys. Like, dude, what is organic chemistry now? Like looking back how how big organic chemistry used to be, like everyone used to be like, "Oh my god, OKM, I I don't know what I learned in that class, you know?

I think just I think the basic building steps and tools that you you learn along the way to get into med school a lot of stuff you don't use anymore but I think the lessons that I remember from college are the life lessons you learn how to be an adult in a safe in a safe environment right uh you can try things you can be part of things fail and then maybe retry again there's this cushion in college which I think is important part of uh I think becoming an adult I I think my biggest education in college was I was part of an organization, a fraternity.

Just being part of that just taught me so many life skills that I still use. I mean, you know, we ran events. I remember as a freaking 18year-old, 19-year-old, we were organizing like big u dinners and gala dinners, fundraisers. Uh uh a bunch of us 19 to 20 year olds um you know, organized a 5K run and had people attend from other cities. And that was that was a life education that you don't get out of other places.

I mean, when else would you get together with a bunch of your friends and um organize a 5K or organize a galla dinner or a date auction? That that's the kind of education I remember from college. Not the not the biochemistry I learned. Yeah, that was important. I think at that time it was important. I studied, I took the exams, got the GPA I needed to get into med school where a lot of the stuff I learned I still don't remember. But, you know, uh nobody remembers it, bro.

So, I think that's that's why colleges are important because it's a place for young people to go go to school, be in a place where they're learning stuff, but also be around other adults their age and try things. Try things that are different. Try things that are that are risky, try things that might not uh be successful, but then fail and then the consequences of that are not that huge sometimes, you know. Yeah, totally, man.

I I think like uh you know it's like almost a a popular thing for people that are hyper successful to um to say in the public eye that oh I don't think people need to go to college I think it's a waste even though funny enough most of those people did go to college themselves you know like Peter Teal is a common one uh a famous Silicon Valley investor who who commonly says that that oh I don't think people need to go to college but he did you know and I I think it's just like a cliche And it's an incomplete statement to say that it it's clickbait in a way because uh like you're saying, you know, your the formal classroom education is one but small aspect.

There's all the social relationships you make, the extracurriculars you're involved with. Um and the friendships you make for life that can be connections. It can just be a true friend. It can be a little bit of both. Um it can help your career. It can you can meet your spouse. I mean, anything like that. All of those things are huge and they're a lot more than, you know, the joke of gosh, I don't remember Okam. I don't remember Okam either, you know.

Um, and I I also think it helps uh you grow in a way and you learn about yourself. Like I very rarely like went to class because I found I didn't really learn in class. It wasn't an efficient thing for me. I would just do it on my own. And then you have a lot of free time and do whatever you want. Um, so I think those things are huge.

uh those are really important and those are the real skills uh the social skills and learning about yourself and how you can better accomplish things that uh that was a big factor in college and then um you know learning to fail like I'll give you an example you know when I was in um gosh I think it was the summer between like sophomore and junior year I want to say maybe a little further along somewhere middleish of college me and uh three other friends we started our own investment company um like completely unrelated to medicine.

We just were all very interested in stocks. We had independently traded for a while. Um I started stock trading when I was in high school. Um traded stocks and ETFs and options and all and all of us kind of did. We had been talking about it for a while that this is uh interesting. We really like it. We would nerd out on it. Oh, look at this went down. Are you going to short this? And we decided to just kind of pull our money together and form a little investment company.

We like met with a lawyer. We incorporated it and everything. And so we started managing just our own money initially. We got a few, you know, friends and family together and started like taking in checks and stuff. I mean, as funny as that was, you know, invested in the company, a bunch of 18-year-olds. Yeah. A bunch of people that were not interested in keeping their money. And so, you know, but we we grew it a little bit. We hired two interns.

Um, and um, you know, we just did that and we tried to formalize it even though it was a small thing and we were doing it kind of just for fun and just to see where it goes. We had like a rotating monthly managing partner. Did the whole thing. We would meet. We had minutes of the meeting. There was a lot of goofing off involved. Um, a lot of making fun of each other involved, roasting each other on, "Oh, that stuck. That sucks, dude.

Really thought that would go up." You know, like that's just how our meetings went. But it was fun running it. And we basically ran it until um all of us graduated and, you know, myself and a couple others got into med school. One guy went to business school, one guy pursued a masters. Um, and so then we dissolved it. we all, you know, gave the money back to some of our investors and then took uh our own share of it. And so, like I thought it was a wonderful experience.

I mean, it was my first experience really working with other people in real life when money was involved. And you really see even though the amount wasn't huge, uh you really see how people can change and decisions can change and people's behavior changes when finances are involved. Um, and when people say, you know, it's a risky endeavor to go into a business with your best friend or your sibling or whatever, it can be if your incentives are not aligned and your vision is not aligned.

Um, because it can create a rift, right? One person thinks they're doing all the work, they're carrying the team, the other person's kind of coasting and vice versa. So, that that was a big learning experience for me that honestly had nothing to do with my major in college or my minor or just the classes themselves. It was just the opportunity to be around people that were somewhat like-minded, similar interests, and were driven to try something, to do something new.

Um, and you know, that I just think that was an awesome experience. And a lot of people have experiences like that. That's what I really think college is. It's a collection of these experiences that really can shape your uh your path in life. Yeah, that's pretty amazing, man. I'm pretty sure during college, I don't even know what a stock meant.

you were already way ahead of me uh in that uh you know I uh for me the college was just uh like a eye opening experience I mean I was just you know I think I um I didn't grow up sheltered per se you know um but pretty much stayed within our neighborhood my close friends were around close to me uh we would just hang out with each other uh in high school and you know I was a you know I was an immigrant I mean I was I was new to the country for me a lot of things new you know I my family moved uh when I was you know around 8 10 11 years old then just high school was the first introduction to me to the country I mean that's when I started and just uh you know adjusting to a completely new culture a new country that was that was a big deal and back back then I mean Houston was not a uh you know uh the same how it is now where everything you know and you're familiar with is around you it was a little different I mean I grew up in Katy where Uh, I did not have a lot of friends that looked like me or were like me.

Uh, so going to college was just kind of eye opening cuz I got exposed to so much more uh to what there is out in the world. I mean, my parents throughout high school were pretty just they're busy just kind of creating a life here, you know. Um, and one one big thing in college was making my own decisions. Learn how to like, you know, uh, even just figuring out how to apply for college. I mean, my parents had never applied to college in the US.

Uh, you know, figuring out how to apply to college, what is FAFSA, uh, how to even apply for a student loan or apply for grants or, uh, what what apartment to choose, how to find roommates. Uh, unfortunately, I mean, a lot of parents nowadays that have grown up here, I mean, I'm pretty sure I'll be doing that for my kid because I know how to do that because I went to school here. But I made those decisions on my own.

um you know picking what major you know what classes do I need to take going on a college visit um you know going through all that I think that independent decision-m is what's missing um nowadays and that gave me a lot of confidence in um you know in my life ahead because uh I I see a lot of people now a lot of parents that make a lot of their decision for the kids uh no you're going to do this let me just take you there this is the college you should go to you know um sometimes sometimes I think it's important important to kind of figure things out on your own.

Uh guide them maybe um kind of push them in a certain way but let them make a decision. So let me let me ask you this. I mean that that is an interesting question right and I think it's a thing a lot of parents struggle with like at what point you know you're observing your child and you have the I guess advantage of experience in context of real life um because you've lived it before they have.

Um, at what point are you observing your kid and you see them, you know, making a mistake or making a potentially bad decision knowing them in like easy, simple, harmless example. Let's say they pick too many classes in college in their first semester. They take 25 credit hours or something silly that is maybe too much of a workload. They're going to be stressed. They're going to be doing too much.

They're not going to have enough time at the start for social engagements if they're just constantly working and studying and stuff. Do you allow them to make that mistake and learn from it on their own? Do you immediately counsel them that, hey, you shouldn't do that. Maybe don't take this, this, and this. And you give them the reasons why. Like, at what point do you step back?

You know, at what point do you let go of the reins and let them, as you said, just kind of learn it on their own and live it? That's a that's a hard thing, man. I don't know how I can see my kid picking 24 five credit hours in the first year and being like, I'm going to do this.

and then me not being like hey are you sure like you want to have some fun uh make sure you have a social life as well me me I'm going to be giving that advice whereas um you know my parents as new immigrants like they didn't know what even credit hours were at that time you know so I didn't get that advice I don't know what's better you know I truly don't I don't I don't know if me learning on my own but for me it was a lot of talking to my peers uh reaching out to people and uh I think you do get advice from somewhere right you just don't um uh just make decisions blindly.

I think uh maybe uh what we do need to teach our kids is learning how to find the answers on their own sometimes. Seek advice, seek other people's opinions, not just have wait for people to tell them what to do, but actually seek multiple opinions. Uh get advice from different people, you know, hear from one person, hear from the other person, and then make an informed decision. I think that's a skill to have, too.

uh you know um and that's that's I feel like I did that in college uh where I talked to my friend um you know who was already in college or you know called someone who was um kind of applying with me hey what are you doing and then based on those things I mean that's how we make a lot of decision now right I I run things by my other friends uh you know hey I'm I'm thinking about doing this what do you all think uh so yeah I mean we we even do that all the time in practice like if I have a complex case patient comes in with a difficult like elbow fracture.

I'll send photos of the X-rays to my colleagues, you know, my my co-fellow from fellowship, a few of my co-residents, people I know in the area be like, "Hey, what do you think about this?" It's so common. People do the same thing. They send me x-rays all the time, you know, just as an easy example that in life, day-to-day in practice, I mean, today, I think I got like four texts from other people. Hey, here's this wrist fracture. What would you do? Hey, this patient has this injury.

Would you treat it this way? It's very common, right? It's that you accumulate knowledge from other people. I think it's very very normal thing to do and it's a good skill to learn early on. So yeah, I mean the you know that's that's so true. That's the key part about college. I mean college is a place where you learn these life skills and I I I wouldn't trade my college experience for anything, you know, but there were times in college that I did not think I would make it to med school.

I don't know if that was like that for you ever where you you know there were failures, there were struggles for me. Uh um for me I had to take the MCAT three times. Uh I took the MCAD first and uh I did horrible. I mean I studied all uh summer long. I uh took the Princeton review or yeah Princeton review course. Uh I did really good on the science and the uh what was it? Science and physics. No, there's I guess they've changed they've changed the MCAT now as well.

Verbal the verbal was what cleared me. I mean I scored horrible on verbal. My score was disastrous and I was like okay I'm definitely not going to get into med school with this score. And then but I still applied. I didn't get a single interview my first time. Um you know uh I applied to med school, didn't get in. Uh and my senior year I was like oh man I'm not in med school. I'm a freaking biomedical science major. what kind of job I can get with a biomedical technique.

Um, but then that summer right after uh you know I I took another uh right after I did poorly on the first one I took a second time and then again my verbal score went up a little bit but it was still bad. Um and um I didn't get in that time, but then that summer after I did get in, you know, I studied and what I don't know what I did it just just focused on verbal mainly and and and got that done and got an amazing MCAT score my third time through. Applied, got a bunch of interviews.

Um and that's kind of when I was like, okay. But there was a long time where I did not think I was going to get to med school. I was thinking maybe I'll have to apply to some out of state schools or maybe even a, you know, Caribbean school uh to go. I thought about that. I mean, you know, I wanted to be a physician. I I knew that's what I wanted to do. That was a dream. And uh I kept trying. But that's the key, I think.

Um, I'm glad I took the third time cuz after the second time, people were like, you know, it's okay, you know, just go to the Caribbean or do whatever, you know, or maybe look into other things, uh, or maybe keep applying, you know, maybe another year. The third time taking the MCAT might not be, uh, a good idea. But that's the thing, you know, so many people are there to give you advice and then you have to do take information from everyone, but do what's right for you.

I'm glad I took the MCAT the third time. And if there's anyone that's struggling out there with two failed attempts at the MCAT, take it the third time cuz, you know, third time's the charm, right? Third times the charm. No, that's interesting, Homaya. That I mean, I I didn't know that about you. Um I think it's awesome that you persevered and did that, especially as you mentioned, you knew deep down that this is what you wanted to do, right?

Like this is not just a goal, it's the goal for you, at least professionally at that time. I mean, did you have any thought like as you were going through it? I'm sure you had some thoughts of like, gosh, what if I just don't get in? Like, is there another career path? Had you thought about a realistic other career option or you just you were going to get in hell or high water? It was just a matter of figuring it out. Yeah, I think it was a matter of figuring out.

I didn't even, you know, I had no other options. I mean, literally, it's funny. Every time I went to the last time I was uh driving to the MCAD test, I was like, "Okay." I was super nervous and I played the 8 mile uh Eminem song, I was like, "This is it. This one chance." There you go. Don't miss this opportunity. Yeah. So, I I took the test. I luckily I mean, something worked, you know, something worked and uh I mean, maybe it was just bunch of prayers.

Uh and my third time was a really good score and that kind of negated all the first two uh the first two failures. I mean life is about failures, right? I mean when you have failures you learn learn a ton and then you as a dad it's going to be hard to see my kid fail at things you know uh as he grows up. I mean you know he's going to he's going to go through failures but I think that's important.

I mean failure is a part of what you know you're you know makes you stronger build builds resilience but luckily I got into med school but I did take a gap year now and I you know I worked as you know since I applied towards uh did that MCAT towards the end of my senior year uh I worked as a research coordinator and funny funny story is the building that I'm sitting in we're sitting in my office right now u and uh I was a research coordinator in a physician's office on the first floor of this building Oh, really?

Yeah. Come full circle, huh? Come full circle. Yes. So, I worked as a research coordinator slash medical assistant. I had no idea what I was doing. I mean, you know, honestly, when you come out of college, you think you know a lot. You you're you're a freaking bastards in science, whatever major, you've done all these classes, you've had, but the real world, you know, there's a lot of learning to do.

I mean, you know, uh that's what I want a lot of people to know that when you come out of college, there's still a lot of learning to do. You're not ready for the world yet, right? Right. I mean, that's that's a big part. And that one year, the gap year I took where I worked in a physician's office, interacted with other people that were in different phases of life, that taught me a lot. Yeah, for sure, man. I mean, you know, for me, I um I just went from college directly into med school.

I didn't take a gap year or anything like that. Um but yeah, you just like it's almost like a continuous string of education from when you're like 3 years old until when you finally finish med school. there's not any um any real break where you enter the so-called real world, right? You're just constantly surrounded by a student of some kind in some form of classroom. Um so I don't know.

I mean, I think there's a reason, you know, the average age of someone that gets into medical school in the United States, it's not 22, meaning it's not directly after you graduate from college. I think the average, I mean, last time I checked, which was to be frank, a couple years ago, was I think 24. So, you know, the average person takes at least a year, if not two, to do, you know, with a research or a gap or an advanced degree. They choose to go to med school late, whatever it is.

And, you know, maybe that gives you a little more context of life. You're a little more mature. Um, you don't take it for granted that, you know, okay, you're just going through the process. You had another school, you had another test, you had another class. So, I don't know. I mean, maybe that gap year and what you did is it wasitting you. Yeah. I mean, that was not not the only gap year. So, the funny story is after after I after I was working, I applied to med schools.

I interviewed a bunch of places. I got in, you know, uh got into my uh first choice, which was uh you know, Texas A&M. I enjoyed that because I was going to be close to home and uh um that was where I went to school. So, I was like, "Oh, I can just continue living&m." My um my wife and now was also I knew her I met her in college. You know, like we said, you meet your spouse in college. better in college. She was living there at that time.

She was in finishing up her college and so I was like, "Okay, well, I can be in College Station again." Um, so I applied to med school at&m and got in there. But the funny thing was, uh, a lot of people that year&M had built a new med school, flashy new building, and more people ranked&M as their number one choice, and&M thought that they're not going to get that many number one picks. So they allowed a lot more people to come into the cloud.

the match that year, you know, that I think the TMD SAS match or whatever they call it year&m accepted more students they had and their kids. Very Aggy thing to do. Uh so the Aggy math, huh? Aggie math. So uh so they accepted more uh kids in their class that year than they had to and and then they they were like, "Okay, we we can't do that. We only have funding for 200 kids where we have 225 kids accepted.

Uh so they offered a few options to people who want to defer for a year and they opt offered doing either M. PH, masters public health, masters in uh science or doing an MBA and uh I don't know what got into me that year. Uh I was like you know this is an opportunity and I need to take this and uh they were paying for a big part of the MBA so I just deferred for another year and dude that's great. That's awesome.

You know, one one thing we should do is just in for people that aren't familiar, we've mentioned the match a few times, the match is basically um for Texas medical schools, especially the public medical schools, it's a match system and all of residency is a match. So, what the match is is basically someone like myself or when we're going through the process and applying um every location, every school that we interview at, we rank them on a list from, let's say, hypothetically 1 through 10.

And then those schools will also rank all of their interviewees from one through 100. And then there's actually a computer algorithm. It's the match algorithm that will then try to rank as evenly and closely as possible all the ones with ones, twos with twos, threes with threes to try to give the best possible outcome for the best largest number of people so that the maximum number of applicants match at their highest choice on the list. It actually um it's interesting.

It's a game theory problem that won the Nobel Prize. Uh, it's called the stable marriage problem, which is what the match is based off of. So, that's um that's what it is. That's what we keep talking about, the match. It's just how you get into medical school in Texas. Um, the rest of the country uses it less so for med school, but all residency is based off the match. Yeah, it's a pretty uh it's a funny system, but you know, that's for another day, but it's just what it is. Yeah. Yeah.

I think going for that MBA program was probably one of the best decisions, man. Um you know I think uh the one thing we need to learn is identifying opportunity when it comes to you and just taking it uh not you know uh and I think for me personally that opportunity was a big one cuz it was one of those type of education that just blew my mind away. Uh you know I was one of the younger people in the class.

Uh most of the people in my MBA class had uh had five to six years even 10 years of work experience. Some of them were vets. Some had some had been leadership positions in the military. Um there were other people that were in pretty uh high level positions in the previous jobs and now they were doing MBAs to move even further. Uh so just those classes, those discussions were amazing. We would uh I did my MBA at Maze Business School um at Texas A&M. Uh and the professors were amazing.

We would show up to class, we would read a bunch of case reports from, you know, Harvard case review or um other businesses, read about them, what they're doing, and then just come in class and discuss and learn from each other and and that would just like, you know, be like, oh, like, you know, someone would be like, "Oh, yeah, we used to do that at Target." Or I used to work at Aldi and that's what we used to do.

So people would just compare and contrast what they did based on what the cases are doing. We did this uh at that time when I was in during the NBA program, Netflix had a disastrous campaign where they like uh uh separated the two companies. One was streaming company and everyone just was um um was uh bashing the CEO. What kind of stupid move is this? What is streaming? You know, what you're going to have like a whole Netflix just for watching videos online. That's such a bad model.

And looking back now and we studied that in in detail and had a lot of opinions and there was discussions about what uh what should have been done but you know those discussions and the ideas that came in those discussions were amazing and now looking back okay Netflix is one of the biggest brands now in video streaming and they kind of pioneered that uh and we didn't know that back then you know we were just discussing those things and so that MBA year was just you know as a med student you're just in that bubble of science biochem like just learning about science science science the NBA doesn't teach you to an accountant.

It doesn't teach you be to be a to be a finance guy. It teaches you how to think, you know, it teaches you how to problem solve. And that's what g that year gave me. And I I can't be thankful for the year. That's awesome.

I mean, you know, I think anytime you're exposed to um a variety of different people, you know, ages, genders, races, cultural backgrounds, professional backgrounds, struggles, you know, I mean, it just creates an opportunity that's right for everyone to learn from each other because you're not all in an echo chamber. You're not all basically similar, right? Uh I think that's really interesting.

I'm sure they learned a lot from you, too, you know, because being younger, you had a different perspective, maybe a generational perspective. Um that's really cool.

I mean so going back you would for sure let's assume if&m didn't have you know a uh an excess of students that they accepted using the joy of Aggie math I mean would you have uh maybe done the MBA or I mean maybe not maybe not maybe not I don't think I would have done that uh and you know it's interesting like sometimes those chance opportunities in life they come about and it's kind of like you said you just you jump at it right you take the opportunity that's presented um I think that's huge I mean so Many things in life happen that way where a opportunity comes about.

It's fleeting, but if you take the chance, you jump on it, you're the one that kind of goes for it versus everyone else who's kind of sitting by the wayside taking the tried and trueue path. Um, it can amount to something awesome. I mean, tell us about your opportunity in Australia, man. I know you did your, you know, residency at uh uh you did your residency in Atlanta, right? And then in Tampa. Yeah. So, yeah.

So after college, I went to med school at Baylor in Houston and then I did my orthopedic residency in Tampa in Florida and then I did my first fellowship in uh in hand and micro surgery at Emory in Atlanta. And then uh you know we had just had Rayan my son in that fellowship. So he was he was a baby. He was just a few months old. And then me, Samia, my wife Samia and Rayan, we um we moved to Australia and I did a second fellowship in shoulder and elbow surgery. Um which it was awesome.

Uh we lived in Sydney um during it and you know when I was in residency I was kind of very torn between what subsp specialty of orthopedic surgery I wanted to do whether just hand and wrist surgery, shoulder and elbow surgery because those are two different things. Even though you know someone listening may be like oh it's all in the arm. uh they're very subsp specialcialized, very distinct things. Um and I kind of wanted to do all of it.

I wanted to be a true expert and specialist at surgery um in the upper limb. Um you fixing fractures, doing joint replacements, nerve repair, nerve transfers, all that stuff. Um and you can't really get that experience and really high level expertise with just a single fellowship. You you really got to do both if you want to be complete at it. And so that was one reason why um I did that second fellowship in shoulder and elbow. But the other reason honestly was to uh go abroad.

Um the opportunity to live in Australia um for 6 months to a year came about and it was hard to pass up. You know, before uh my our son was born, Sammy and I talked a lot about, you know, like once practice starts, once the so-called real life starts, are we ever going to take a a break, you know, will you ever take a 6 month or one year break and just kind of travel and live abroad and, you know, just disengage from life over here? I mean, realistically, no. No one does that.

it's very difficult to um and so when that opportunity came um we kind of just jumped on it and thankfully my wife was on board and she's very um adventurous in that regard and we just up and moved with our 5-year-old baby uh with no family, no help, no one. We didn't know anybody over there and uh we found an apartment online in Sydney and uh got all the credentiing done and everything. The people there were awesome, awesome people. Uh the group was called the Sydney Shoulder Research Institute.

It was amazing. Um, some of the best time I've had in my life. I mean, we we really actually strongly considered like what if we just moved here uh and just lived here. The culture in Australia, the people were so friendly. Uh, and they have such like a beautiful balance of work and life. Everyone works really hard, but everyone values their time off. They're very active. Uh, it's a very outdoor friendly vibe. Um, and you know, people don't hold it against you, right?

You take a vacation here in the US, everyone's like, "Oh, you you took your time off. What?" Over there, people like or encourage it. It's unheard of to not take your vacations and everyone is supportive of it, you know, just the vibe was different. Um, but yeah, it was it was a great time. We're in such a cycle of just work, work, work. We never just like really slow down to see what life is truly about, right? I mean, we never really say, "Okay, let's just enjoy what's going on. We don't know.

I don't have experience with other fields, but as med students or or as medical trainees, we're always just looking to the next step." So, it's nice to kind of like just have, hey, like what you know, let's experience something new. And as part of my training, I mean, you know, that that'd be, you know, as part of your training, you chose Australia to go there, have this new experience, take that risk. So, which is amazing.

Seems like our journeys are, you know, we we both went through the medical journey and there's see that's that's kind of shows you how there's two different there's many different types of med students.

is uh I feel like uh your experience is different in a way that you started a goal and you you know got into the programs you wanted and got the and I feel like I had to like struggle to get into every single uh or fight you know I had to be I had to be okay I I really need to get into this and you know my internal medicine residency program I feel like you know I I ranked uh uh many programs uh as my first few choices I ranked in my pro uh uh program that I preferred.

It wasn't my first choice, but I I'm glad I did that. It was amazing program. I mean, the the camaraderie and the I did my residency University of Texas in Houston and in the med center and the kind of pathology I saw there and the people that I came across uh the the friends I made in residency, uh the training, I got a lot of independence which was amazing. So, it worked out for me.

But, you know, I feel like my career has been uh always just uncertain, never sure if I'm going to be getting in the right the the next program that I want to be in. Even with fellowship, I didn't rank into my first choice program. Uh and had to be in a program where ended up loving it. Uh ended up getting a lot of really good training. And that kind of teaches you. I mean, you know, um, yeah, it's great if things you you you apply to things, you get in right away, and that's your first choice.

You get all the amazing, uh, programs you want, and they turn out to be the way that you envision them to be, and you get amazing training, you become the physician you want to be. But sometimes, uh, things don't work out the way they're supposed to, right? And things you end up in places you don't want to be, but sometimes they end up being the most amazing and the best places for you. And totally makes you are uh I'm I'm grateful for everything all the training I went through.

There's people on match day you I go through the t I go through Tik Tok, Instagram matched every time and just like people disappointed crying. Yeah. My first choice but it's it doesn't it that's not what defines you in that. You know there's there's med students like you who you know do well throughout the whole thing. They get into the program they need. They have minimal struggles. Uh they get into orthopedics. they, you know, uh, get into the job you want.

And then there's people like like me who, uh, you know, have to like kind of grasp for every every single opportunity they get because not everything, bro. You're not struggling. You're doing awesome. But it's just Yeah. Yeah. But that's the thing like, you know, I'm not a there's two different types of people, right? So, uh, for some people like, you know, education, learning, like taking tests comes easy to them, right?

But there are the students that like me that don't like just taking tests is not easy. Like learning and processing information is not as easy and I have to work at it and but that work that I went through is what got me here. And now I'm much more confident in in what I'm doing and you know and that's the struggle I had to go through to be here and that's kind of what medical training puts you through. It kind of you know for some people it's it's they belong there.

they are top of the class, they they get what they need. They and they do well, right? But then if people who are maybe not up for it, they go through the struggle and build a character and then they kind of, you know, cuz to be a physician, you have to be at the top of your game, you know. But I think everything I went through is what got me to the point where I'm very happy now. I'm very successful. Uh I have a a great practice. I enjoy my practice. A lot of patients love me.

Um, and I feel like for the most part I'm doing a good job for them and being a good physician, being a good cardiologist for them. I think there's two journeys, but I want I want med students to know that, you know, it's okay. You know, it's okay. The the struggles that you go through are okay. They're they're not that's not the end of the world. You you're not less than someone else. You're not better than someone else. Everyone has a different journey and that journey is what matters.

And in the end, that journey makes you ready for the destination. Yeah. No, totally, man. I mean, you know, it's funny like through that website I have, Med School Declassified, you know, I probably get like 30 40 emails a month or at least I'm ashamed to admit maybe that many that I check. Uh it's hard to keep up with it, but so many emails from students, right?

Like a lot of college students, I I I kid you not, a couple middle school students who are already set in their mind at that young age that they want to be doctors, which maybe is premature, but you know, a lot of students in college especially that are applying to med school and can't get in. U they've tried a bunch, they've tried a bunch, and it's so much of that kind of like how you're uh remarking is they're very distraught, right? Like they have this vision.

It's just like crystallized in their mind. I've always wanted to be a doctor. this is how I dream of myself in the future, right? And it's very disheartening for them. And you know, I find myself a lot when I uh email them back. I talk to them back and forth a bit when we go over their CV and okay, where can you shore up your application? How can you make it a little stronger? Right? So much of it is honestly just counseling and telling them like, hey, you really want this.

You've told me yourself. Some things are just difficult. Some things take more than one attempt. You just got to go for it. If this is what you really want, um, you have to know so you don't have any regrets down the road in the future that you gave it everything you have. And everything you have doesn't mean just one attempt. Sometimes one, sometimes two, sometimes many. I mean, everyone knows this cliche who watches basketball. Michael Jordan was cut from his varsity team his first year.

I mean, he potentially one of the greatest athletes of all time. He failed at something he wanted so badly at that age, but it it hardened him. It made him the player he was.

he just didn't want want to take no he didn't never wanted to be sat on the bench again um and you know we are much less skilled versions of of that but uh but it's just I mean it just shows that like perseverance is so important because failure happens to everybody um so yeah I mean I I don't think that regardless of the path I mean everyone arrives in their own way you know like I didn't have the same struggles you did in that way but you know, like talking about growing up and high school, I mean, I was born and raised here, so I didn't have the the change in culture, I guess, of moving here.

But, you know, it's funny like my entire life from first grade until 12th grade, uh, I went to basically I went to an all boys Christian a Catholic school. And so, when I was in high school, uh, I went to Jesuit in Dallas. I was the first Muslim kid ever at Jesuit. And then two years later, my brother was the second Muslim kid ever, a Jesuit.

And uh it was just interesting like my whole life I was um like school-wise um very much surrounded by people that did not look like me, didn't have the same religion as me. Their cultural backgrounds were completely different than mine. You know, both my parents were immigrants. Um you know, so it was just very different environment. And I I don't know.

it I I feel like in those situations cuz a lot of my friends were in similar situations um you either kind of go into your shell a little bit or you just kind of seize the moment and it makes you a bit um I don't know like hyperconident uh more outgoing to maybe you know to fit in or you know to not feel like you have any baggage or to try to put aside differences. Um I don't know maybe that's kind of what happened to me.

I just I never felt like um like I was secondary or that oh my gosh that sense of otherness like I that never really happened to me or at least I never really consciously acknowledged it even though like logically it was there. You know what I mean? Like u maybe you adapted slowly to just kind of stand out a little bit more and just be that extra confident just because you were a little different maybe. Yeah, maybe. So who knows? I mean what we go through, you know, that's that's uh life.

But you know I think uh we're getting at 45 minute mark. I don't know if we want to you know we always talk about how we want to uh keep it to a point and not bore people for too long but I think it was a good u you know good good time to end here. I think we have a lot more to kind of discuss and uh you know continue and we'll you know continue to bring our experiences into the podcast uh also discuss specific topics as we go.

So it's kind of you know um uh good session uh good kind of talking about this and kind of reflecting on life as well. So yeah it's a it's refreshing nostalgia that's for sure thinking about the the high school college and med school days.

Um that's that's definitely the message is that you know training uh growing up college the journey you go through is is has an importance every experience you have is an importance and every experience you have failure successes is what gets you to where you are right now. It allows you success allows you to deal with a lot of adversities that come your way as you grow up. So don't don't worry about those adversities. just learn how to move forward and get past it. Yeah, totally, man.

I mean, it's, you know, I'll leave a I'll leave with a quote uh to be cheesy here, but actually my favorite quote is a Dr. Seuss quote. It's uh don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened. You know, it's just the journey. Just enjoy the process. That's beautiful. All right, my brother. Till next time. See you everybody. Heat. Heat.