Do You Still Need a Mentor as an Adult? Two Doctors Debate

Humayun: Free man, how does how does freedom feel for you finally? Yeah. Adil: Yeah. Dude, Adil: freedom feels good. Freedom feels like unemployment. but it feels good. Humayun: Where's the money? Adil: Yeah, exactly. No, it feels good. I mean it's it's cool 'cause I Adil: can just focus now on the last little parts of building the practice right Adil: before we open up. I mean just gosh, about a week. ish until Adil: we start seeing patients. So I'm really excited. a lot of last minute things.

Humayun: It's a fun time, dude. Adil: Yeah, dude, about time. No kidding. Adil: It's a long process, that's for sure. Humayun: I mean the whole whole thing is a it's a fun process, Humayun: you know, you see the practice grow, new challenges come up and Humayun: it's fun because whenever issues come up you're solving them for yourself Humayun: and something's go right and it's it's a a different kind of high. Humayun: You know, you feel more Adil: Yeah. Humayun: excited about it.

When when you have I'm sure in your employed Humayun: practice when you had an issue and something happened, you're just like, Okay, Humayun: that's solved or that was something annoying to deal with But when it's Humayun: in your practice and your your mind is constantly churning as well Humayun: because you're thinking of ideas and then you can you can just implement Humayun: it.

The the the work like the whole practice is your canvas and Humayun: you can do whatever you want and so you have a interesting, Humayun: unique idea, you just go ahead and you're like, All right, let me Humayun: see how to implement that and then you just do it, you know. Adil: No, for sure, man. That that's what I'm excited about. Yeah, exactly. Humayun: No one no one's stopping you. No one's stopping you. Adil: There's no committee meeting or consensus that needs Adil: to happen.

The the consensus is right here. Humayun: Yeah, there's no bureaucracy, there's no Humayun: like three managers that you gotta talk about to and they're Humayun: gonna say, No, we don't wanna do this, this is like, Humayun: you know, ruining my life and you have to convince like Humayun: five people, you just decide something and you just implement it. Adil: Yeah. No, for sure. I'm looking forward to it. I think it'll be fine. Humayun: The office looks Humayun: nice though.

Yeah, it looks the X ray Humayun: machine looked awesome. The suite is looking good. Adil: Yeah. Adil: Thanks, man. Yeah, it's cool seeing it come together. I mean, it is Adil: kinda nuts seeing like before and after 'cause I think it was like the Adil: space, you know, f was I think a pediatric clinic or something that I Adil: got. It was something non surgical. And so had to do a bunch of Adil: renovations and all, but seeing it come together now, it is very very exciting. Humayun: Yeah.

And there's this gonna be a lot of you know, exciting accomplishments Humayun: and things in there it'd be it'd be fun. So I mean it it Humayun: takes a lot though and it it's always good to, you know, talk Humayun: to different people and see how they're doing things.

I'm sure when you start Humayun: doing things and you know, you'll you'll get some ideas and I'm sure Humayun: like, you know, you'll you'll talk to me and I'll I'll probably think about Humayun: I haven't I haven't thought of that myself, that that's a good idea and Humayun: You should always stay open to the ideas, you know.

that's Humayun: I think medicine, as physicians, sometimes we lack that where we Humayun: get into our heads and you know, we don't we don't really Humayun: learn as much from each other. I in in in the clinical sense Humayun: we do. But we don't find mentors or mentorship in other areas of Humayun: life like business or f or financial literacy or whatever.

We we Humayun: we ha we all we've always been used to clinical mentors, but not Humayun: in other areas of life and in business I think that's very important. Adil: Yeah, I I completely agree. And it kind of like, you know, Adil: it begs the question of is mentorship done at some point?

You Adil: know, like once you're done with your education, you know, like formal education, Adil: like your schooling or your training, you know, for doctors, the training Adil: goes beyond school and residency and fellowship. But for anybody, like when your Adil: education, your formal schooling is done, is mentorship done, or your mentors Adil: only your teachers or coaches? Like now you're in the real professional world. Adil: You've got the job you always wanted.

Let's say you're married, you have Adil: kids, you're your family stage. Do you need mentors still? You know, that's Adil: a big question. And I think a lot of people they kind of Adil: stop mentorship when they stop their formal schooling. but I I don't necessarily Adil: think mentorship should stop at that stage. In fact I think it continuing Adil: it throughout life, because at each stage in life you need different types Adil: of mentorship and different types of guidance.

what do you think about that? Humayun: Yeah, you know, i interesting t but do you Humayun: know where the word mentor comes from comes from? Adil: no I don't. Where does it come from? Humayun: You have you so I recently I haven't seen the movie Humayun: yet, but I recently finished reading the Odyssey. and and Odyssey, Athena, Humayun: the goddess Athena, which is she's the the goddess of wisdom, right? Adil: Right.

Humayun: Zeus's daughter, and she comes to Odysseus' son, Humayun: and she turns into one of their old Humayun: you know, one of his advisors and his name was Mentor. And Humayun: Athena turns into mentor and and guides Telemachus through the journey of Humayun: finding Odysseus and going through that. And that's kinda where mentor comes from. Adil: Wow. That's cool. Humayun: And then a mentor also, you know, in in odd in Humayun: the Odyssey, guides Od Odysseus into doing certain things.

So it's you Humayun: know, that's kind of the origins of the word mentor because Humayun: it's a goddess of wisdom that's kinda hidden and disguised as some Humayun: older man that's guiding Odysseus and Telemachus into you know doing going through Humayun: the whole journey. So it kinda tells you, you know, it's a very Humayun: old idea. yeah, and mentorship has been there for a while.

If you Humayun: read into like classic ancient Greek and Roman like philosophy and literature, you Humayun: know you know, Aristotle, Socrates, they were bent like, you know, they were Humayun: had a mentor mentee relate you know relationship as well with people like Humayun: a lot of the emperors like Seneca was a was was a mentor Humayun: or tutor to Nero who was a Roman emperor and then you know Humayun: the way even the Roman emperors used to pick their heirs was not Humayun: just their their kids, their sons like you know they were used to Humayun: find someone who's capable enough, adopt them as their sons.

Humayun: and it was never a direct lineage if you look Humayun: at the history of the Roman Empire. It was never Adil: Right. Humayun: direct linear. It was not like, yeah, my son will become emperor and Humayun: then his son and his son. They used to find someone who was a Humayun: good possible future king, adopt them, make them the son, mentor them through the Humayun: life, and build them to be eventually be the king or the Roman Emperor.

Humayun: and so mentorship is is an idea that's been there for a long Humayun: time and throughout history you find instances of older men getting mentorship from other Humayun: wiser older men. and I think mentorship is a lifelong thing. It sh you Humayun: sh you should have a mentor when you're young. You should seek mentors when Humayun: you're in your t teens and twenties. You should always look up to people Humayun: and kinda get ideas and always be open to ideas.

And then you kinda Humayun: you know, in your thirties when you start coming into your own, you should Humayun: you know, look for many areas of mentorship and mentorship and we'll Humayun: talk about that. Mentorship is just not finding someone who's similar to Humayun: you and just following them. mentorship can come from many ways, from Humayun: from from books, from from friends, from your kids, from your siblings.

Humayun: You know, business leaders, people that you don't even know sometimes can Humayun: be somewhat mentors to you if you follow certain people in the way. Humayun: So I think mentorship should always be there. You should always learn from Humayun: others. you know, so it's never never an end. You never can know Adil: For sure. Humayun: everything, right? You can never know everything.

Adil: Yeah, you know, another thing I think is interesting is how mentorship, at Adil: least in my mind, you know, and in my experience, is a bit Adil: different when you're younger versus as you get older, because when you're younger, Adil: you more often are seeking mentors that you look up to. You know, s Adil: people that are for one older than you, have accomplished what you are Adil: seeking to accomplish.

And it's almost more like in a idolizing way that, Adil: you know, they're a role model in addition to guiding you and mentoring you. Adil: But as you get older, I think it's less of someone being a Adil: role model for you, less of like, my gosh, I'm impressed by this person, Adil: therefore I want to do that. But it's more so you're more like Adil: task specific in a way with the mentorship and guidance you need.

Like me, Adil: for example, I a very easy example, kind of what we started the Adil: episode with talking about is like my new practice. For me, in a way, Adil: Humayun, you are kind of like a mentor in navigating a startup new practice. Adil: but in other ways I could be a mentor for you if Adil: we were talking about something else, you know? Like I I would Adil: say that it the mentoring comes more so from individual areas of Adil: expertise that one is seeking.

Whereas when you're younger, it's more of a Adil: role model mindset. Because I think maybe I don't know, this is Adil: more of a question now as maybe when you're younger, like you're Adil: a teenager, early twenties, you don't really know to ask the right questions. Adil: and how to find a mentor for what your goals are, because Adil: your goals haven't crystallized really yet. You're kind of more so just Adil: seeking like a life mentor or a life coach.

And I think Adil: maybe that's also why there's more mass appeal for guys you know, Adil: these like rabble rousers or motivational speakers and things like that to Adil: a much younger population. You know, people like Tony Robbins, for example.

Adil: He drives more with people that are on the younger side because Adil: the message is a little more generic, it's a little more general Adil: and that's kind of like this general sense of confidence and a Adil: general role model that younger people are seeking. Whereas people who are Adil: a little more established in their life, a little more set on Adil: their path and they need specific guidance, they would seek more specific mentorship. Humayun: Yeah.

I mean as a as a twenty year old year old, Humayun: do you truly know what you want from life? You know, y Humayun: you don't. you have an idea or maybe a semblance of an idea Humayun: what you think you want. so you seek people that you think Humayun: have a successful lives, right? Or maybe some way they will they Humayun: they will benefit your C V, right? You know, a lot of people Humayun: reach out to me all the time online or in person, like can Humayun: I come shadow you?

Can I come and and they when they come Humayun: shadow me, they talk to me, they ask questions and you know, because Humayun: that's something they have to write on their C V, they have to Humayun: write that they shadow a physician, but they also w want to sometimes Humayun: get an idea what cardiology is like or what medicine is like, what Humayun: what private practice is like.

So they they they're trying to explore different different Humayun: careers and professions and realms and and they see people who who maybe Humayun: have done it and they they they maybe want to do that and Humayun: they have maybe a they l look to be successful.

but as you Humayun: grow older you're you're looking for solutions to problems and then you look Humayun: onto people who have gone through this similar issue as you and kind Humayun: of have solved the problem in the past to to gain their experience, Humayun: right?

so that's why people like Tony Robbins or some of these motivational speakers, Humayun: even some of grifters like Andrew Tate, you know, they attract a lot Humayun: of younger people because they somewhat give this aura of like success, right? they Humayun: they portray themselves as, you know, rich and driving these fancy cars and Humayun: being around beautiful women and and having a lot of money and so younger Humayun: people are attracted to that.

They see, this guy has a lot of money Humayun: and you know this is the kind of life I'm I I I want Humayun: and what have they done to be so successful? And that's where I mean, Humayun: you know, mentorship is very important of true truly knowing who truly is successful Humayun: and what kind of hard work they've put in.

Are these people guiding those Humayun: twenty year olds the right way in the same way as like a real Humayun: life mentor would who's not really on social media or or but they've gone Humayun: through the same kind of grind that has led to real life success, yeah. Adil: Yeah. You know, that Adil: like makes me think of something, Humayun.

It's kinda like you know, it's the Adil: question, i is someone, you know, in terms of seeking a mentor, you know, Adil: is someone more attracted to like the lifestyle that they see someone else currently Adil: having and they think, man, I want to be like that or I wanna Adil: be part of that and that's what they seek. You know, that kind of Adil: is what this you know, like your and like Andrew Tate as the example.

Adil: It's like this lifestyle, at least that he's curated in his social media persona. Adil: that attracts a lot of young young kids versus I think as Adil: you mature in your own life and now you have set goals Adil: and directions you want to take your own life, professionally, in the workplace, Adil: with your family life, your relationships, your kids, parenthood, whatever, you have Adil: these set paths you want to do.

Now you're a little more active Adil: in seeking out mentorship and the journey, how to get from A Adil: to B, rather than just the end goal, the lifestyle that is visible. Adil: how you actually arrived there. I think those are two very Adil: different paths and also two very different immature versus mature mindsets Adil: in what I don't know, in in what appeals to you. Humayun: Yeah.

Like for me, for example, like there's senior cardiologists that have Humayun: that are running very successful practices. Like, you know, I consider them my Humayun: mentors. I go to them for questions. I even though sometimes I think Humayun: that I'm doing things the right way or I'm doing things my Humayun: way and I know that my ideas are much more progressive and new. Humayun: Some of the older guys I go to them for a lot of Humayun: ideas because they've gone through the same thing.

Maybe they're I'm they're Humayun: not doing things the way I want to do, but I wanna pick Humayun: their brains and how they dealt with the problem so I can then Humayun: come up with my own solution. you Humayun: know, mentorship at our age is not blindly Humayun: Follow someone, follow someone and and take their advice and go in Humayun: and but you also need to know when to cut off a mentor Humayun: and be like, okay, this is it. this is what they believe.

Now Humayun: my views are this, and I'm gonna extract from them what they suggested Humayun: to me and what they taught me and apply it to what Humayun: my worldviews are because my worldviews are already formed, right? I've already gone Humayun: through certain experiences in life. I have an experience in starting a practice, Humayun: I have an experience in running successful business.

yeah, maybe I'm only five Humayun: years into it, they're 30 years into it, they've seen stuff that I Humayun: I haven't so I'm going to learn from them but also apply Humayun: my thought but just just because they did it before doesn't mean they Humayun: did it the right exact way. So I think mentorship in the Humayun: thirties and forties is much more deliberate, right?

It's much more focused, problem Humayun: solving focused rather than me aspiring to a lifestyle that they're living because Humayun: I d I don't want a lifestyle that they're living. I mean, I Humayun: I have my own ideas of my lifestyle. I kinda know what I want. Humayun: I'm living a very good lifestyle right now. So I've kinda kinda reached Humayun: that place in my life.

Whereas whereas for the f the the advice that Humayun: I need from them is more dealing with a certain issue that I've come Humayun: across and now how would they do it and what would they advise Humayun: me to do, right? like me and you, like you can be a mentor Humayun: to me in a lot of ways and I can be a mentor Humayun: to you in a lot of ways, but we have very similar lifestyles.

I'm Humayun: not aspiring to the lifestyle that you're living and you're you know, we're both Humayun: living similar lifestyles, but there's a lot to learn from each Humayun: other, right? I mean, I learn a lot from you, you learn Humayun: a lot from me. And same with other other friends as well. Humayun: I mean, there's people that we learn a lot from, right?

So Adil: I think that's, you know, Adil: that's like what I believe is that's like a hallmark of a true friendship Adil: that kind of grows with you rather than your friends of convenience, you know. Adil: I and I think like a majority of people are friends of convenience because Adil: you happen to be around, you're in proximity to each other, right? You live Adil: close enough, you know, your spouses are friends, your kids are friends, you know, Adil: it like is easy to jive with each other.

but not all friendships like Adil: force you to grow a little more and challenge yourself on a consistent basis. Adil: and I think that's like what really makes some friendships very meaningful. Adil: is like how much you connect and push each other and you Adil: force each other to grow together. Because I think shared experiences is really Adil: where friendship solidifies and stays strong long term. And that's kind of Adil: what mentorship is, is like you you share a journey together.

One Adil: person may be a little further along in one thing they're going towards. Adil: And they could help you along in that way and vice versa. I mean Adil: that's I think that's a lot of what gives people joy in a friendship. Humayun: Yeah. I mean look at the book club as an example, right?

the Humayun: book club is an example of mentorship where maybe five, six, seven people of Humayun: Very different worldviews, very different experiences, and and very different stages of Humayun: life can come together. Read a book, extract certain knowledges of them, Humayun: give their own perspective on it, right?

And then you learn from each Humayun: other and kind of try to get that idea and and and Humayun: and build on that because you're getting you read first of all you're Humayun: reading books that you maybe would have never read before, you know, Humayun: because someone else has someone else chose it for you. And then you're Adil: Right, that's right.

Humayun: y you read a book and you get something out of it, Humayun: but then someone else got an idea that you probably wouldn't have thought Humayun: about.

And that's kind of a mentorship too amongst and that's why you Humayun: see people in our age group kind of having those more type of Humayun: discussions where is it like, you know, you know, a group getting together Humayun: to discuss politics or a group getting together to discuss books, where we Humayun: seek that, where we seek new ideas that would grow our mind, teach Humayun: us something and and and make her more make us more robust.

Whereas Humayun: when you're when you're younger, you know, you're not interested in Humayun: in i in that kind of growth. You're interested in more like Humayun: you know, a aspirational growth. I wanna aspire to be that person Humayun: or aspire to be like that. And that those are the kind Humayun: of mentors you seek when you're younger, and that's when you're more Humayun: prone to falling for a lot of grifters out there as well. Adil: Yeah, no doubt, no doubt about it.

I mean I you know, it's Adil: interesting. I think like i it's a lot easier for people nowadays in Adil: the age of social media and stuff to pretend that they're like a mega Adil: mentor to the masses. You know, like you can create this aura about Adil: you, and have a digital presence and you know, whatever have you, and Adil: that can garner you attention, followers, you can be invited to speaking engagements or Adil: You know, whatever the hell it is.

whereas in the past, before that, Adil: I I think it was a lot more organic and people really looked up Adil: to those around them, you know, a coach, a friend's dad, you know Adil: y whatever. Like that stuff was more real and you actually had more of Adil: a relationship and an ability to converse with someone like that and talk Adil: to them about nuances and details of how they did what they did.

Nowadays Adil: Like there's no mentoring going on from someone with a public persona, you Adil: know, to one of their three million followers. It's more so just someone Adil: observing their lifestyle or the segments of their lifestyle they decide to divulge. Humayun: So it's an interesting idea and one thing that I've kind of learned Humayun: over the past few years is you know, jud d I think there's one Humayun: test you should put everything through.

And when you're deciding something and you're Humayun: listening to someone, you always should put it through the test that does that Humayun: person have the skin in the game? you know, because a lot of people Humayun: like these people on social media they're supposedly mentoring like millions of Humayun: people. They have no skin in the game in that in that case Humayun: where they're just giving advice and all they're doing is just gaining from Humayun: followers, right?

So all they have to do is give this aspirational, unrealistic Humayun: advice and the whole goal is not the prosperity of the of the Humayun: the pupils but of the pupil but but the the the masses and Humayun: attractiveness of the idea and the message, right?

Well it's easy to Humayun: kinda tell someone, yeah, you can just go in and quit college and Humayun: go on and work and hustle and you know you'll you'll be Humayun: making millions of dollars and the cars you'll be driving that that attracts Humayun: a lot of people. But there's no skin in the game there. Humayun: Whereas in the in the past people used to become apprentices to these Humayun: these mentors, right? They would work with them for ten, fifteen years Humayun: sometimes, five years.

If you look through the history, I mean, you know Adil: It used to be like Adil: the only way, you know, you wanna be a blacksmith? Go. Yeah.

Humayun: Only way like you know, Leonardo da Vinci or you Humayun: know Einstein or all of these people have done did some kind of Humayun: mentorship program where they mentored or apprenticed under someone for a long time, Humayun: and it either be in PhD courses or in in in personal relationships Humayun: where they had mentors and these mentors had skin in the game where Humayun: the success of their students meant a lot and if their students went Humayun: on to write books or be successful, it it helped them.

And a a Adil: Yeah. Humayun: failed men a failed mentee would be something devastating to their reputation as well. Adil: Yeah, Adil: it was like their intellectual lineage. Humayun: per first, like for example, like you know, I when Humayun: I give you advice and I give a friend advice, Humayun: there's skin in the game because I know you personally and Humayun: you know, e like when I'm giving you advice I'm thinking, is Humayun: this the right advice for him?

Because two years from now, if Humayun: what the what I'm telling him, if that does not work the Humayun: way I you know, I'm suggesting, he's gonna look at me as Humayun: like this guy's an idiot. What is he telling me? He's he's always Adil: Ha ha. Humayun: led me astray, right? But these people these people Adil: Yeah. Humayun: on social media don't have that kind of accountability.

I mean people Humayun: can just you know, they can give a lot of advice and Humayun: people when by the time they realize that they were wrong, I mean Humayun: they've they're much older and there's a whole new younger crowd that's Humayun: there to probably fall prey to those ideas and all by that Humayun: time these these people have made millions of dollars from from you Humayun: know giving this wrong advice with no skin in the game.

So I Humayun: think that matters a lot and I think everyone should whenever they're Humayun: taking advice from someone, be be it the wealth manager or accountant Humayun: or or a business advisor or a psychiatrist, whoever, I mean, you know Humayun: You have to kinda consider does this person have skin Humayun: in the game? because if they don't, then they could Humayun: be giving you wrong advice with no consequences for them. Adil: that's true. That's very true. Well said.

You know, an another question is Adil: do you think everyone needs a mentor? I mean, do you think people Adil: can achieve success however they define it? but can be successful without any mentorship? Humayun: I mean, you know, you have to learn from somewhere, right? You Humayun: have to learn be it mentorship from another person, or mentorship from from Humayun: books, or mentorship from just living life.

I think if you don't Humayun: have a mentor, I think you can get through life, make a lot Humayun: of mistakes and learn from your own life's mistakes and that can Humayun: be a mentorship journey for you. But it would take a lot longer, Humayun: you'll make a lot more mistakes and you may not get as far. Humayun: So I think I think mentorship has a lot of benefits in Humayun: that sense because you know, a lot of people that don't seek mentors, Humayun: there's no one to guide you.

I mean, are you do you Humayun: truly think that a a sixteen year old, seventeen year old that's coming Humayun: ho out of high school is equipped to deal with adulthood, right? Humayun: do you do you think they're ready as seventeen, eighteen year old guys Humayun: or boys or girls out there when they go independent uhly go Humayun: to college, are they ready to deal with the realities of life at Humayun: that time? college is kind of buffer for a lot of people, right?

Humayun: That's and many people don't go to college, right? So you you're sixteen, Humayun: seventeen, eighteen, you come out of high school, you go to college and Humayun: college acts as a buffer where you can somewhat get mentors, find friends, Humayun: find professors that but live s a certain adult life without harsh consequences. Humayun: right, and then you can get through that and then go into Humayun: the real world.

Whereas some people come out of and stick they Humayun: go straight into working. And it's very hard for those people at that Humayun: time to find mentors and sometimes it's harder for them to climb Humayun: that ladder of success, versus someone who went to college. It may not Humayun: be that that then the education that they're getting in college, but Humayun: it's the this is that opportunity to live your life for four years.

Humayun: with making a lot of mistakes, not having those kind of consequences, finding mentors Humayun: and then and then learning life lessons and then go on to the real Humayun: world. That I think college plays a big role there. But yeah, I I Humayun: don't know. Do you think kids coming out of age as eighteen year olds Humayun: are equipped with tools nowadays to go on and and and be independent adults? Adil: I think they can be.

I mean I I think like a you Adil: know, the the premise of my question is more so like geared towards Adil: people beyond the college age. I mean I think when you're younger it's Adil: a lot easier for mentorship to kinda just happen in a much more Adil: informal way. You know, like you're exposed to people that are simply more Adil: mature and have more experience than you that are forcibly in a way Adil: imparting knowledge on you, like a teacher or a coach or your parents. Humayun: Yeah.

Adil: You know, or a friend's parents, if you happen to be hanging out Adil: with a friend a lot, right? or an older kid or an older Adil: teenager that you look up to, or a sibling who is older, right? There's Adil: just a lot more opportunities on a regular basis that you're gonna be Adil: given knowledge and given experience from someone else's brain.

But when let's say Adil: you're twenty five, you're twenty eight, you're thirty two, I think it almost forces Adil: you, if you want to continue to have mentorship, to take a much Adil: more active and formal role. Like you gotta seek it out. It might happen. Adil: organically in some scenarios, like you have a job and a manager Adil: really takes a liking to you and wants to guide you along.

Adil: but I think for a lot of people it starts becoming life is Adil: a routine and in terms of advancing in something, you've gotta really, Adil: really be active and seek out whether you find someone through like you're Adil: talking about, like I don't know, a book club or an activity Adil: club or a social group, or a religious group, a church group, whatever. Adil: You find someone that you think, man, they really got their life together Adil: in X category or Y category.

I'm gonna talk to them about it. But Adil: it's almost awkward if you're not used to that. And you ask like if Adil: you're a 28-year-old and you want to start your own business and be Adil: successful, and currently you're working a white-collar job somewhere, and you meet someone who Adil: has a bunch of restaurants, you just met them a little bit at a Adil: cocktail party or something. It's a big ask to like try to get that. Adil: person to form a mentor mentee relationship with you.

I think Adil: it becomes much harder as an adult. And because it's difficult and Adil: maybe people are just not familiar with that process and how Adil: to do it, mentorship is less common as you get older. And Adil: a lot of people just kind of live their life. You know? Humayun: Yeah. Humayun: Yeah, I think that that whole idea of mentorship is going away, like you Humayun: said. people are just so busy with their lives.

you know, s social media Humayun: is taking up a lot of s mental space for a lot of people Humayun: when they're when they're not working and you know, at their jobs, but then Humayun: they a lot of people are brain like kind of just like mentally exhausted Humayun: and they doom scroll for hours and hours instead of taking that active kinda Humayun: mo motivation to go and seek mentors, meet with people, discuss ideas, learn.

They Humayun: they just scroll through social media and you know they and and then they Humayun: find these clips which they think is actually mentoring them, but these clips come Humayun: in 30 second like dopamine bursts that go on and they you you you Humayun: get this false sense that you're learning, right?

You get this false sense that Humayun: yeah you learned you saw this successful podcast clip and then you saw this Humayun: business billionaire giving you a 30 minutes 30 second spiel on how Humayun: he overcame some kind of you know adversity.

So you get this Humayun: false sense of mentorship because on social media you're seeing a lot Humayun: of things and you say, yeah, I followed this person, I watched Humayun: this podcast and I you know and then you truly never find Humayun: that the need to go in out and seek mentors.

you know Humayun: podcast itself like can be a great source of mentorship because you know Humayun: there's a lot of very intelligent people that come on podcasts but very few Humayun: people have the attention span to sit through one to two hours of Humayun: a podcast episode and truly listen and understand and think about these ideas, right?

Humayun: The podcast, like our podcast, is a very a basic example, that we Humayun: you know, it's sometimes lasts an hour, an hour, but there's other podcasts that, Humayun: you know, s Diary of a CEO or like you know, Joe Rogan experience Adil: Super Adil: long. Yeah, like three hours. Humayun: Sometimes can be two hours, three Humayun: hours. And there's very few people like that that truly go on Humayun: and listen to the whole episode and truly get something out of Humayun: it.

They they hear tidbits, they hear clips, thirty seconds, a minute, maybe Humayun: a four minute YouTube clip, but they truly don't listen and that's Humayun: kinda they're missing out that idea or opportunity of mentorship that you can Humayun: get from a very easy source, like a podcast, right? Let alone Humayun: like books, right? Books are just completely the the the idea of reading. Humayun: And young people reading books is just dying.

And there it's a Humayun: it's last grasp where people are just like grasping on these, you Humayun: know, BookTok and trying to like promote book reading, but a lot Humayun: of people, majority of the country is not reading books anymore. Because Humayun: people just don't have the attention to spend and same thing kind Adil: Right. Humayun: of th translates to relationships where no one Adil: Hmm. Humayun: is seeking out relationships to get that mentor mentee relationship.

so Humayun: it it's I think it's gonna die off and you know Humayun: Then we kind of get into this space that we've been talking about. Humayun: Can AI be a mentor? Do you think do you think do you think Adil: God, I hope not. Humayun: can AI be a mentor to a lot of young people where Humayun: they go on and and start asking questions through life?

Like when you Humayun: know they're living through life and they're they they get some kind of Humayun: stuck get stuck in the problem and then they just ask their Humayun: favorite AI chatbot this question. They get some kind of advice and they Humayun: kind of go move on forward. They don't truly seek people who live Humayun: who've had that lived experience, right?

We've we've had this conversation before, but Humayun: We're talking about mentorship and is AI mentorship will be Humayun: a big part of what's gonna go on in the future. Adil: Yeah, I mean I guess before we even broach the topic, in my Adil: opinion, on if AI could be a mentor or not, we first have Adil: to answer the question, is all mentorship good or not? Because I don't Adil: think AI is gonna be a good mentor. It doesn't mean it can't Adil: be a mentor, I guess.

I mean it can give you guidance and Adil: stuff and it's something that, you know, we're talking about mentorship being a Adil: potential long term relationship. You seek it out, you formulate questions, you have goals. Adil: You can do that type of interfacing with AI, but AI Adil: really has no experience. AI has never lived. It's never actually Adil: dealt with real life problems. It's dealt with whatever is fed Humayun: Yeah. Adil: to it.

And it is fed so much data that probabilistically it Adil: can churn out answers that are relevant often. But I don't think its Adil: answers are based on context all the time. And I see that Adil: often when we get patients every day in clinical, you probably do too. Adil: That have come back with researching on ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini Adil: and Perplexity.

And they're the stuff that they have come back with is Adil: just like it's ridiculous that it is factually a correct statement, but it Adil: is totally irrelevant to their care. Like someone comes in because they Adil: got a shoulder MRI. They copy paste the report into AI and now Adil: they ask it, tell me about it, you know, just a general thing. Adil: AI is gonna give them a readout and a description of every Adil: single finding in the MRI and it's gonna make them freak out.

And Adil: you know, then they're gonna come to your clinic and you're gonna basically Adil: you just talk them off the ledge about everything that actually you're gonna Adil: be okay. I mean, I s I that's just a simple example that Adil: I encounter a lot. And that's why I don't think like having a Adil: real mentor, which is an AI model or a chat bot or whatever. Adil: i is really gonna be relevant because it hasn't really lived a life. Adil: It hasn't encountered problems in a human context.

And that's what you're seeking a Adil: mentor for. You're seeking a mentor as another human being that can guide you, Adil: another human being in what you're struggling with or what you're seeking towards. A Adil: robot or an algorithm cannot guide you from as one human being to another. Humayun: Yeah. So the question I mean the question comes back to that, like, Humayun: you know, what what is good mentorship and what is bad mentorship?

And Humayun: I get part of the answer was like, you know, if a mentor Humayun: doesn't have skin in the game where they have no kind of connection Humayun: to your real life situation and they're just giving you blind advice with Humayun: no further consequences, I personally think that is that is bad mentorship. what Humayun: do you think s are some hallmarks of like bad mentorship or what Humayun: what kind of people or what kind of situations become bad mentorship advices?

Adil: Gosh, mean I think anything that if you are in a p in Adil: a mentor role, like for me, I mentor a ton of medical students, Adil: and then pre medical students that are trying to get into med school, Adil: you know, through my med school declassified website. Like I interact with them all Adil: the time. You know, if I start acting self serving, you know, I Adil: give them advice or guidance or something that somehow helps me. Well, now Adil: I have a bias, right?

And I'm not necessarily gonna do and say things Adil: That are gonna be exclusively to their benefit. You know, like if Adil: a kid I don't know, like let's say a college kid is asking Adil: me, Doctor Ahmed what do you recommend I do? How should I Adil: get into med school?

Now, if I tell him, Well, you know, you Adil: should just come rotate in my clinic, work with me for free, Adil: shadow me, help me write my notes, do this and that, do my Adil: inventory, and I'll write you a good regular recommendation letter. Okay, I mean Adil: I have some name recognition. I've done a lot of research. I've been Adil: in academics before. I know some people.

Maybe my letter of recommendation could help Adil: But I'm also like getting something out of it i in terms of Adil: free labor, right? So I would classify that as a selfish and kind of Adil: self-serving method of mentorship. That yeah, could it help the kid? Sure. But Adil: I don't believe that true mentorship is transactional. It's I don't think true mentorship Adil: is you scratch my back, I scratch yours. I think that's more so like Adil: You're bartering.

Whether you're bartering time, money, or something else of value, Adil: that's bartering. That's not mentoring. Mentorship is something that is given in Adil: a sense almost for free for the sake of it, because you Adil: care. That's what I really believe in. And so to answer your Adil: question, that that's an example of what I would call bad mentorship.

Humayun: Yeah, I mean there's there there's a lot of physician examples that Humayun: I know that are charging pretty large amounts of sums of money Humayun: t to for students, pre medical students or college students or foreign Humayun: graduates that want to go in and do medicine to come and Humayun: shadow them, you know, sometimes up to fifteen hundred dollars for a Humayun: rotation for a month. Right?

These these are students, and if you're Humayun: a motivation for a student to come in and work with you Humayun: is money and every student that comes in is gonna be a f Humayun: a fifteen hundred dollar payday for you. That's you know, you're motivated Humayun: to take eight, nine, ten students at a time. That's quite a bit Humayun: of money that you're making. And are these students truly getting a whole Humayun: experience of learning and mentorship?

Yeah, they they get to write on Humayun: their C V, you know, that they mentored you but there's are you Humayun: truly, out of your goodness of your heart giving them education, teaching, learning. Humayun: you know, when your goal is to maximize the amount of students that Humayun: are there for you and and maybe doing some free labor for you, I Humayun: think that's kind of a form of bad mentorship and self serving mentorship, Humayun: right? Like you said.

whereas people who kinda limit they say, Okay, I only Humayun: take one or two students max, I wanna make sure I do a Humayun: good job. And why would I even charge a student for money? You know. Adil: Yeah, they're Adil: already paying tuition at their school, it's like Humayun: They they pay Humayun: tuition. Like why would I why would I charge a student Adil: Yeah.

Humayun: who's struggling already with finances with money and and have them like, Humayun: you know, pay rent plus like a fee to to work with me. Humayun: you know when I do mentorship I I'm doing it because I wanna Humayun: spread the knowledge and that's how the ethos of medicine has been.

Like, Humayun: you know medicine f physician mentors have always mentored not because they're getting Humayun: paid for every student they take on, it's because they wanna just trans Humayun: the knowledge and and move on and and and produce further future good Humayun: doctors and inspire people, right? So that's that's a big part of it. Now Humayun: you can say that yeah the work I do I I need to get Humayun: paid for. you know but you know you have to look at the Humayun: situation.

Now if there's if there's a medical school paying you or a service Humayun: paying you, that's a different story. But directly charging a student to be a Humayun: so and so mentor is is can be kinda in my opinion somewhat unethical. Adil: Yeah, and I think that's a big distinction, you know, like you Adil: know, working as a teacher versus being a mentor are two different things.

Adil: Like, I mean, any teacher, y you know, your middle school social studies Adil: teacher is getting paid to teach social studies, okay? Teaching a class Adil: of fifteen, sixth graders is not mentorship. That's your job. You know what Adil: I mean? Like mentorship I think is very much different and it goes Adil: above and beyond your vocation, you know, like what you're paid to do.

Adil: Mentorship is like really taking an investing interest in an individual and Adil: helping them carve out their life in a positive direction. That's what Adil: I think mentorship is. And a good mentor uses their experience and Adil: their knowledge, their mistakes and their successes and tries to impart that on Adil: someone. Not just, okay, here's the coursework, here's the PowerPoint, there you Adil: go. I mentored you. No, you like did work as a teacher Adil: or something.

But a mentorship I think is different than that. You know, Humayun: Yeah. Adil: I think like Adil: Like you're saying, if you take a student in your clinic and Adil: really let them shadow you, you show them how to do a Adil: physical exam, how to use a stethoscope and listen, what is important Adil: to ask patients, how to take a history.

you guide them through Adil: that and they'd really gain something very valuable on what it means Adil: to be a doctor and how to acquire information from a patient Adil: so you can make a diagnosis and a treatment plan. That's very different. Adil: I think that is real mentorship. You're really working one Adil: on one with someone and like you're you're driven to Adil: make that person better. That's I think that's real mentorship. Humayun: Yeah.

You know, there's also this idea for a lot of people Humayun: find mentors and they always keep for years and years and year, Humayun: they keep looking up to those mentors and that mentor for them Humayun: can never go wrong, right? But but you should realize that there will Humayun: be a time when you may outgrow your mentor, right?

and i Humayun: i it is very important to realize that moment when you outgrow Humayun: the mentor and let go of the mentor and move on and maybe Humayun: find another mentor 'cause a lot of times that happens, right?

A lot Humayun: of times that happens that you work with someone, you look up to Humayun: them, you get the right ideas, but eventually you find out that, you know, Humayun: you've kinda outpaced them, outgrown them, and you're you're at a different stage Humayun: of their life where their services, their mentorship is no longer as beneficial Humayun: to you.

I think it's completely okay to move on kinda in in the Humayun: on a cordial level and as a mentor, that's completely okay for you Humayun: to understand that, hey, this this person has outgrown me and they don't really Humayun: No longer benefit from my mentorship. I think they need to be talking Humayun: to someone else. And that that idea is very important. And a lot Humayun: of people have a very hard time letting go of that.

You know, a Humayun: lot of mentees have a hard time kind of looking beyond the mentor Humayun: that they have and seeing that okay, there's someone else, and I need Humayun: to move on and not no longer listen to this guy. And a lot Humayun: of mentors have an ego where there's like, okay, I've always kind of Humayun: guided this guy. Why is he even talking to someone else anymore? You know. Adil: Dude, yeah.

Adil: I mean, I think that happens a lot in in medicine because you know, Adil: like if a resident takes a job at the same program where they trained, Adil: in the eyes of the current attendings who are now on paper, their colleagues Adil: or their partners, it's like, they were my resident. You know, once a resident Humayun: Yeah. Adil: always there's that like almost like artificial hierarchy. not everywhere, but Adil: that that is a known thing. in a lot of places.

Adil: So I think that's a that's a good example. And I Humayun: And there's certain s Humayun: programs like where you kinda see the culture shifting where, you know, Humayun: there's some programs you'll see that the the the resident from that same Humayun: program will graduate and and stay at that program as an attending Humayun: and they'll always call their previous attendings as doctor this or doctor that Humayun: or doctor and and kinda always have that relationship.

But there's some places Adil: Yeah, it's weird, dude. Humayun: that where you know where you know the culture is right Humayun: is where those attendings go and be like, Hey, you can Humayun: call me by my first name now, you know, where we're calling. Humayun: And go ahead and do that Adil: Right. Humayun: because you know, we work together. That's how you know that the Humayun: culture may be a little bit more conducive to growth.

Because if if Humayun: a if a a a resident graduates and stays and just continues to Humayun: be in that resident mindset at the program, that means they're not really Humayun: growing and their attendings are never looking at looking at them as someone Humayun: who's grown and outgrown them as as mentors and now as a colleague. Adil: Yeah. No, for sure.

I mean, 'cause it's almost like, you know, when Adil: you're in training in any environment, you know, the educator or the person with Adil: more experience is imparting knowledge. There is a there is a difference, right? So Adil: you're working kind of under someone, you're looking up to them. But then, you Adil: know, at some point you get on the same playing field and you Adil: work next to each other. You're not there isn't that hierarchy anymore.

I mean, Adil: I felt that personally a lot that you know, in training there was people Adil: I looked up to a lot and I thought they were like just like Adil: Tremendous. They fantastic surgeons, great skills, great hands. They were fast, they were Adil: efficient, they were quick. They always were able to, you know, in orthopedics, like Adil: do a joint replacement well, well balanced. It was smooth.

They worked well, patients Adil: did well, the fracture was reduced well, you know, things like that. And like Adil: now I do that. You know what I mean? And it doesn't mean I Adil: respect them less. I just understand that I've also cultivated that skill set. I Adil: still respect them for the fact that they taught me how to do it. Adil: But now I look at them as colleagues, you know, I'm not Adil: thinking like, my gosh, that guy like I that respect and is Adil: always gonna be there.

Like they taught me this skill. But I Adil: there's a difference, right? Like that's I think when you become real colleagues Adil: with each other and you can kind of share with each other Adil: and becomes a two way street. And I think that's how a Adil: mentor mentee relationship can actually even grow into a real friendship, a friendship Humayun: Yeah. Adil: of equals. Humayun: And sometimes it flips, right?

Sometimes that mentor mentee relationship flips where maybe Humayun: an attending that you work with that taught you a lot and you Humayun: grew and you kinda developed the same skill sets and you w went Humayun: in and started your own practice like you are now, and maybe they Humayun: at some point may come to you like, Hey, I'm trying to start Humayun: my practice, can you guide me through it?

And that's happened to me Humayun: multiple times where people who were my attendings, you know, that I learned from, Humayun: Later on came to me and started asking me for my guidance Humayun: on starting a practice and what they should do in terms of business Humayun: and ideas and and and that's when sometimes their role can flip and Humayun: it's always okay.

It's always okay for mentors who are one men once Humayun: mentors to their mentee can at some point kind of lose their Humayun: ego and reach out, be like, Hey, now you know more about this Humayun: than me. Why don't you educate me on that and and and guide Humayun: me through that? And that's completely okay. And a lot of people have Humayun: a very hard time getting past that ego of I'm not gonna ask Humayun: that guy that used to be my fellow like who you know Adil: Yeah.

Humayun: why would I ask him he I I taught him everything he knows. Adil: Right, right. Humayun: you know so that there's a lot of that you know Humayun: and and that kind of happens in your family as well Humayun: as dads. Right now we have young sons and and and Humayun: daughters as well and we we're gonna play a mentor role Humayun: to them through their life and guide them through a lot Humayun: of things and there will come time where they'll outgrow us, right?

Humayun: They will say at thirteen to seventeen years of age, they'll say, Humayun: Hey Dad, like leave me alone like, you know, my friend is Adil: Yeah. Humayun: now my you know, I wanna hang out with them or Humayun: you know, at but at and at some point they grow up Adil: But then they'll Adil: come back, right? It'll it'll swing back.

Because I think like what you said Humayun: It'll swing back, they come back to you, Humayun: but at some point they become they become you know, mentors to you Humayun: about a lot of things 'cause they go out and they'll learn a lot Adil: Yeah. Humayun: of new skills and ideas and they have a lot of you know, Humayun: cool things that you don't know about and then they guide you and you Humayun: can go to them for advice.

Like, you know, sometimes you know, in Humayun: the even me, like I've always looked to my dad as a mentor, he's Humayun: guided me through a lot of things, a role model to me, right? He's Humayun: been highly successful in everything he's done and I've looked up to him Humayun: but now there's a point where I'm doing certain things and he comes to Humayun: me for advice or ideas. Right.

So it's it's it's always good to have Humayun: that kind of humility to be able to have that relationship with your kids Humayun: to mentor them but when at some point they get to a level where Humayun: they have certain unique talents, go to them for advice. and a lot of Humayun: you know, in the South Asian households, if you look at in Pakistan Humayun: or India there there's this whole idea of the patriarch, right?

And the Humayun: patriarch is is there and they kinda just rule the house with the Humayun: iron fist and their son is always stays under their kinda, you know Humayun: mentorship and then they have kids and no one truly gets Humayun: chance to grow in that household. 'Cause that patriarch is so Humayun: strong and they never let go and never fall into that Adil: Yeah, it's almost like Adil: stifling I mean that's like the theme of every damn Adil: Bollywood movie.

It's like it's like no, Amitabh Bachchan said Adil: it. We can't do it now. Bus Bascadia, no? Bascadia? Humayun: Yeah, exactly, right? But it it's a reality. Humayun: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's the other. Yeah, Humayun: exactly. But that's that's a that's a reality in Humayun: a lot of South Asian or a lot of Adil: Right.

Humayun: non you know, a lot of even Hispanic households where Humayun: there's a strong patriarchy or matriarchy and no one can just Humayun: look past those adults or elderly people that are now in their seventies Humayun: and sixties and still think they can control the whole household with the iron Humayun: fist and and and and have a say in all family matters, right?

Humayun: Sometime at some point they gotta step back and let the adult kids grow Humayun: out of that phase and and l and go to them for advice, right? Adil: I mean Adil: we see that happening, you know, in in politics too on a grander Adil: scale, right? Like the geriatric population of the world has a stranglehold over Adil: politics almost everywhere. You know what I mean? It like they really think Adil: that they understand and are above needing advice, mentorship and a fresh look.

Adil: That's what it seems like, you know? Like I Yeah, that's right. That's right. Humayun: Only they can solve things, right? Yeah, yeah, and Humayun: and there needs to be where they at some point they're they're gonna Humayun: die.

But you know, before that they they need to start stepping back Humayun: and realize that the younger generation has a lot more ideas, a lot Humayun: more strength and and and f progressive ideals and and they're they're moving Humayun: on and taking over their place, but these old geriatric politicians need to Humayun: step back and let the younger people take over. So I think mentorship Humayun: plays a part in every aspect of life. It's kinda crazy now Humayun: that we're talking about this.

I'm just thinking of all these ideas Humayun: where there's mentor ment ment mentor mentee relationship and sometimes a lot Humayun: of times they go wrong. and you know that's when you go Humayun: wrong it's a dysfunctional society, dysfunctional business, dysfunctional house household. Yeah. So Adil: That's right.

You know, another Adil: another thing that I just want to mention, you know, like people asked Adil: me a lot and you know, it's funny, I did a an interview Adil: recently with Becker's Healthcare about, you know, leaving academics and starting my own Adil: practice. They reached out to me for it, which was really cool. And Adil: one of the questions they asked, was like, How did I I guess Adil: gain confidence that this was possible? Like who did I talk to? How Adil: did I figure it out?

And I just told them very honestly that like Adil: In in my life I've always been very open about what I know and Adil: what I don't know. Very confident in who I am and I have no Adil: issue saying I don't know about something, but I also have no issue in Adil: seeking it out. And so basically I asked a bunch of people that I Adil: knew like personally, but I also reached out cold to a ton of people Adil: that I had never met and didn't know. B like as an example.

There's Adil: several doctors, orthopedic surgeons, that have a really big social media following, like on Adil: Instagram and TikTok. And I just sent them a DM. I mean, I Adil: slid into those DMs and I just told them I was like, hey, Adil: I love your stuff. I'm also an orthopedic surgeon and I'm thinking about Adil: going solo private, just like you. And I would love to hear your advice. Adil: I mean, it was as simple as that. It was honest and it Adil: was clear-cut.

And dude, the positive feedback I got, I mean, I I Adil: reached out to three different people that way. All three of them reached out. Adil: I have had numerous phone conversations with them. I have like 40 back and Adil: forth email chains with these guys. I mean, the advice they gave, like for Adil: free, no strings attached. They were just excited and also like very grateful. I Adil: mean, it's a it's flattering, right?

Someone else else reaches out to you, acknowledges Adil: that you're doing something awesome, and they're like, I want to do that. Help Humayun: Yeah. Adil: me do that. And like I have found it to be Adil: such a refreshing and positive experience discussing this process with other Adil: independent physicians who are just like they have like like you mentioned Adil: earlier Humayun like they have nothing to gain from it other than just Adil: the collective happiness that we are collaborating.

You know, it's a very collaborative Adil: spirit. And I just want to mention this that anyone who is, you Adil: know, an adult and is looking to make a career change and is Adil: a little hesitant, like man, how can I do this? How can I Adil: find out? Just find people who have already done it and talk to Adil: them about it. I mean that is the essence of finding a mentor. Adil: As an adult, you have to be goal oriented, you have to Adil: be direct about it, and you just gotta go do it.

I it's Humayun: Yeah, and you Adil: it's been wonderful for me. Humayun: And you'd be surprised how many people are willing to talk about it. Adil: Yeah. Humayun: Yeah. I think that was a very old Humayun: school thinking and I think a lot of the Adil: Ha ha Humayun: newer generation is v very willing to kind of just openly talk about Humayun: and help out.

And you know, over the years, I mean, people have reached Humayun: out to me, I've reached out to people and everyone I find in Humayun: a very collegial kind of role where everyone tries to help each other out. Humayun: And no one has any ill intentions in mind for from what I Humayun: know. But, you know, it's I think it's a great environment.

I think Humayun: if you are if you have a problem in life and there's certain Humayun: kinda issues you're trying to solve, always, like you said, reach out to Humayun: someone and you'll be surprised how willing they are to talk to you. Adil: Absolutely. Humayun: All right man, well let's let's end it here. Episode thirty five. Adil: Alright, boys and girls, thanks for tuning in. Adil: Yeah, two docs, one mic, baby. See y'all next time. Humayun: All right. Yeah.