2Docs Book Club

Heat. Heat. >> Every single weekend is like birthday party, birthday party, some ball pit, a different ball pit. >> Kids birthday parties. >> Uh, you know, but the kids love it, man. It's it's amazing that how much the kids have fun uh attending these birthday parties. They have a blast. But it's every birthday party has the same cadence to it. You know, you get there uh you try to look for the parents that you know, then you start conversations. You watch over your kids. They're playing.

Then it's time for uh >> invariably you'll you'll lose your kid. You're like, "Huh, where where's my kid at?" And you find him [laughter] again. >> All the kids come together for the cake cutting. They cut cake. They eat pizza. >> And then you're on their way. So you can you kind of have an idea where uh where the party's going. And I feel like every party uh I go to is the same kind of cadence, you know. >> It all it goes through the stages like the pediatric birthday party stages that >> Yeah.

But you know that's that's life in your in your mid to late 30s, right? When your kids are growing and uh you know birthday parties is an essential part of that. That's a part of the current millennial experience where you go. >> Yeah. No kidding.

I mean I feel like you know at this age like when your kids are you know I don't know five and under I mean even over that but like so much of your time is so accounted for because you know their life is so regimented and your life is forced to be regimented as well because you're the one making their life happen and taking care of them and taking them everywhere and doing stuff with them.

the the the brief little snippets of free time I are just like glimpses right and it's made me really value that free time so much more than I mean like a decade ago you know I what I'm sure you feel the same way >> for sure in your I mean you know in your 20s you know you have so much more free time you you don't really value your time as much you know a friend calls you like hey you want to go do this you'll just you know go go out and just go hang out with uh random groups of people that you might not even know as well you you'd waste your time maybe watching binge watching shows all day.

Uh you would, you know, you could you could spend like 2 to three hours at the gym if you need to or, you know, you'd want to be out all the time and socialize and just on the go all the time in your 20s kind of, you know, trying to maximize any free time you had. Like it was different a little bit for us because we were in in medical school. So there was not that much time anyways, but still a lot more free time than we have now.

But as you get in your mid to late 30s and you have kids, time just becomes so much val more valuable. And I I now every single minute I want to spend time doing the stuff that would first maximize my time with my kids and my my wife. Uh second uh work on making myself better, right? Better as a better dad, better physician and better business person. Uh and I want to do things.

I I I feel like I don't have the energy and the the the want or desire to uh spend time on either things I don't care about or people I don't care about. I just want to hang out with people I I care about and want to spend time with. Uh I want to do things that would make me better. Right. So I think every time as you come I'm much more careful now with my time than I used to be in my 20s. >> Yeah. You become much more purposeful and intentional with your stuff.

You don't just kind of know what you're saying. You don't just go with the flow as often anymore that some random guy, you know, texts you like, hey, you want to do this or hey, a bunch of us are meeting up here. You want to come? You know, you stop like rolling with it as often, I feel like. And because you just have such little free time, especially like personal time, uh, to do things like reading, um, that's something that honestly, man, I I used to do a lot of lot of reading.

Um, that's really like fallen by the wayside.

um because it just takes a while to sit with a book and you know really get into it and then you get interrupted you may not have time to read for another 3 4 days your train of thought gets messed up um so that's something that I really want to cultivate again and that that's like what we've been talking about with the new year >> and the resolutions and stuff but um you know starting the book club I think that's huge right a bunch of us holding each other accountable um and reading these books together and talking about them you know it checks off the box of a social interaction but also you know you have like your boys holding you uh holding you accountable to make sure you read the book.

>> Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, I love reading books. I think books are it's kind of like, you know, uh strength training and weightlifting is exercise for your body and uh books are an exercise for your mind. You know, you have to keep your mind sharp, keep your mind updated. Uh and and books uh are are are key to that, right? Right now, our life the world has become so rotten with dooms, right?

uh people uh were so addicted to our phones, constant dupes trolling, there's Instagram reels, Tik Tok, and that was one of my thoughts. You know, I I would find myself with recently having a new baby. You know, I would there was times when I'd be holding her and sitting and she would be sleeping sometimes and I I found myself getting on my phone a lot more and and and dupes scrolling a little bit and I was like, you know, this is not too healthy. Like, you know, it's just rotting my mind away.

there's a lot of good information you get within 30 seconds of clips, but uh how I want to spend my money uh time and uh you know brain power.

So that's when I felt like I needed to read more and you know it's become a uh a better habit over this past 3 to 4 months where I've been reading a lot more and and and since there is that downtime with you know at home more uh started read that's when we started that book club and now it's even because now I'm hearing about different recommendations from from you guys uh about the books and reading and then uh you guys holding us holding each other accountable for that. Right.

So, >> oh, for sure. For sure. It's fun, too, because you know, you you read a book, anyone reads a book and, you know, they glean something from it based on their life context and someone brings up something that, you know, you're like, "Oh, wow. I never even thought of that." You know, it's like it's like almost something clicks. And sometimes I find myself going back and at least reading that passage or that part of the book or that chapter again.

If someone makes a pretty insightful comment, I think it's awesome because, you know, you can gain something from the book yourself reading it, but then also someone else's life context and their own example and their own experiences reading the same thing. They got something different out of it. And now that that's really what I enjoy a lot in this discourse with the book with book club and with the other people that read these books.

Um, you know, you kind of learn from others experience >> interact with are very very intelligent people as well. I think getting their perspective and their views and everyone, you know, everyone we know kind of has different ideas about life, everyone's politics is different, everyone's uh life situations are different.

So getting everyone's perspective on certain books it's kind of interesting you know you you you get to see world from a different lens and no and and even if you um kind of look at yourself sometimes you might read a book in your 20s you know early 20s mid20s and that same book if you read in your mid-30s it's a completely different book it hits you a different way right >> for sure different meaning out of that book so just uh hearing ideas from other people who are in different stages of life in different professions and uh different ideologies like you know it's very interesting um one thing that I've kind of started doing more and more is I've started to uh read books in a way where I start six or seven different books at the same time and I start reading them and there's certain books that you know on a certain day I find more interesting I keep reading them more on that day and then those fall off for a few weeks and I'm on to a different book where I'm reading that book for a while so I always have like different books kind of competing over time and I found that an interesting strategy and one thing I recently saw that it's is uh from a lot of people who read a lot is it's okay to sometimes drop a book for a while and just forget about it and let it go if you're halfway through it and you're it's not moving forward, you're not liking it, it's okay to drop the book and kind of move forward and just move on to something else that you find interesting cuz even from month to month and what you're going through in life, your views about certain topics change and it's okay to find one book interesting in one month and then come back maybe six months later and find that book more interesting and then you you start start reading it again, right?

>> Oh man. Yeah. I mean I I hear what you're saying. I I'm totally different though. Like if I start a book, I I have to finish it. Um I just like even if I don't like it, I get halfway through, I'm like, gosh, this book sucks. I'll just I force myself to finish, I try my best not to start another one at the same time because I don't know, man. I I get so scatterbrained and like I start thinking I'm like reading another book and I'm like I didn't finish that other one.

I got to finish that other one. I I'm the same way with like TV shows like I I've never really like watched more than one TV show at a time, you know? I'll just like watch that one through or like I can't watch like a movie, finish it halfway and then start a different movie and then go back. Like it's the same way with books. If I start a book, even if I hate it, like I'll finish it. I'll just force myself to read it and I'll end up starting reading less and less of it.

So it that book will just drag out because I'm not enjoying it. But I try to I I don't know. I'm not saying my way is right or wrong. I just It's interesting that you're very comfortable like reading six or seven whatever books at one time and maybe like pausing on one, reading another one, reading two other books and coming back to it. I um I don't know. I I would lose like the gist or the crux of the book or like whatever I was thinking at the time.

I would have to like refresh, maybe start over or at least start some of it over. >> Yeah. You know, you just the the reason I started doing that cuz I kind of used to be like you. I used to start one book and stick with it. I try to f finish it as as much as possible. And what I found myself doing was I was just kind of getting annoyed with reading and I would just stop reading altogether. And once I would finish that book, I wouldn't start a new book anymore for a while.

I would take a break and cuz and and and halfway through the book if I'm losing interest I would start looking at other books but I won't be able to start them as well because I needed to finish this book right but once since I've been starting I've started doing this new strategy I'm I find myself like you know going back to books that I wasn't finding interesting uh and then starting to all of a sudden getting interest in them and reading them again.

So that way it's it's changed my mindset a lot.

So I think it's it's it's a strategy that some people use but I don't think there's any one right or wrong way right there's there's many different ways and the way I think about getting ideas sometimes you know you with books you need to just um get mental models you know as you're as you're working out and you know just like when you're working out you you're focusing and building mental models at that time and you're getting ideas chapter by chapter right so sometimes I focus on chapter by chapter I I I I read a chapter, I get some ideas out of it and those ideas I instill them and maybe if I move on to a different time or different book, I come back to it, there's the next chapter where I can get a new idea from.

Right. So that's that's just the way I've started doing it now which is a little bit more effective for me. But I don't think there's a the the wrong or right way. Right. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know that that probably varies a lot by the type of book, you know, like for example like a book that's kind of more of like a reference like it would be applicable to anyone at any point in their life.

Just like a self-help or self-improvement type book or a book on an art of negotiation or making a business deal, for example, that could be relevant and many times and maybe certain parts of that book are more relevant for your specific situation. That that's for sure. I hear you. But, you know, if it's like a fiction book, like a novel, oh man, I feel like I would go crazy if I like read like three chapters and I'm like, "All right, peace.

I'll be back in six months." You know, like I that would drive me crazy. Um, but that I that's just how I am, you know? I mean, people are wired differently. >> No, there are there's there's a there's a book uh that I read over I read it over a year and a half. It's called Pachinko. Uh it's a it's a it's a long book. It's it's was number one bestseller for a while. It's about a Korean family living in Japan. Uh, it's a huge historic saga, you know, kind of historic fiction.

Uh, and I read that over years, but I would stop reading, go back to other books, and come back and I still loved it. So, that's just how my brain is wired. But, you know, thought about doing this episode um, >> kind of reflecting on the book club and kind of what books we've liked. And we've talked about, hey, why don't we just talk about certain books that have, you know, uh, impacted us or we've thought about lately. And you know, not necessarily the best books we've ever read, right?

Uh but >> yeah, if there's even such a thing, you know, if someone's like, "What's your favorite book?" I'm like, "Dude, that's like impossible." You know, they're so different depending on when you read them in life, what you were going through, your age, you know, did you were you forced to read it in school or did you pick it up to read for fun? You know, that makes a big difference, too. >> Yeah. Yeah. F there's no such thing as a favorite book.

There's a favorite book for a favorite season of your life or you know there's there but I don't know I how I even answer that. I mean my favorite books are Harry Potter books. >> They're they're very engrossing. >> Yeah. I mean but who >> at least they were when we were teenagers I guess.

I mean I'm sure there still are >> because like you know what books uh I think about most often in my life when I'm kind of going about my life and some books that you know I there was certain lessons or something new that I learned from and also we we kind of talked about making a list uh and some some interesting books you talk about and the first book uh that I kind of want to talk about is kind of more uh you know pertinent to our profession. Um it's very interesting.

I read this book a year and a half ago or so and I read that over a long period of time and I kept coming back to different chapters. But in this book I do there's a lot of different ideas and um principles that I learned that I use in my day-to-day life. Uh you know and I also educate my patients based on some of the stuff stuff I learned from this book is it's a great book. It it's called outlive by Peter, you know. Uh you know Peter Tia is a >> Yeah.

Big longevity guy, health span, lifespan guy. Yeah. >> Yeah. So Peter is a is a he's big in the longevity space. You know, he's trained as a surgeon. He's a pretty smart guy. He's a surgeon. He was going through surgical training and then he uh left his uh surgical training and went into consulting for a while. And then he came back and started doing a lot more longevity work. He and then he wrote this book uh more recently called outlive. Um and it's an amazing book.

And you know the the reason I liked it is because a lot of and we've talked about this in the past. A lot of this uh longevity stuff, this wellness industrial complex stuff gets very gimmicky and you know a lot of the people that start talking about it do not really um use much evidence-based medicine or u but Peter Tia >> a lot of anecdote. Yeah. >> A lot of anecdotal stuff, right? But Peter Tia does a great job um talking about the most common illnesses that are causing us to die early.

he used a lot more evidence-based uh ideas and talks about different things and as I was listening to the cardiology section right he talks about there's a whole chapter on preventive cardiology and everything he was talking about I was like okay this is something that I'm really already you know uh practicing and it's very evidence-based so when I listened to the cardiology chapter I was very impressed as a as a cardiologist I was like okay this guy really knows what he's talking about you know he's not just taking some random lab values he talked about important things all the things that we do in clinical medicine all the time and you know and applying those.

So uh I I really enjoyed that book a lot and there's a few ideas from that book you know uh some of the there there's a couple of things he talks about.

First um thing he talks about is um like the importance of exercise and you know kind of a lot more he goes into a lot more detail uh about what it entails and what it means to exercise you know the importance he gives to muscle mass and building uh muscle strength training and uh how it affects your metabolic um um composition in your body that he does a great job doing that with a lot of evidence based medicine and he uses personal anecdotes as well about the kind of exercise he does and the patient he sees and what and how exercise is very uh dependent on each patient.

Right? A 90-year-old coming to your clinic or 80year-old coming to your clinic uh would not want to do the same kind of exercise that a 30-year-old is doing. So, right exercise and not >> tailored to the patient. Yeah. >> Tailored to the patient. >> No, that's interesting.

like even even like Peter Tia the author I haven't read this book but even when you listen to his podcast um he is very evidence-based and he he takes huge deep dives and really summarizes and digs into the details of a lot of studies which is why I think a lot of people like him and tune into him because not only is he honest about like providing personal anecdotes and talking about his own practice and his patients but he really flushes through the literature a lot uh and tries to make it as evidence-based as possible because this whole wellness you know if we want to call it is wellness, right?

Like living longer, living better, all that stuff rather than direct disease prevention and treatment. A lot of this stuff, as you said, is anecdote only and there's a lot of charlatans out there. So, I think the fact that he does that really distills the evidence is huge. I mean, it it makes him more reputable in my mind. >> Yeah. And he it gets him credibility, right?

When a physician and there's a lot of things he does say uh in in his podcast, in real life that maybe not evidence based, there's logic behind it. There's some kind of scientific reasoning behind it. So, I think and everything he's doing and he's very upfront honest about it, right? He when he talks about in his book, okay, this is there is strong evidence about it and there's no strong evidence about it.

Just like he talks about nutrition, he he talks about nutrition uh and goes up front and he tells that the the the craziest thing about nutrition sciences, we don't know anything about nutrition science. You know, that's why there's so many different fat diets. So many >> uh you know, charlatans are able to come in and talk about different kind of ideas because we truly don't know what is good nutrition and what is good diet. And the way he breaks it down uh nutrition is in three ways.

He calls it uh CR uh DR and TR. And CR is calorie restriction. Um TR is time restriction and you know D and DR is like diet restriction.

So you're you're with with calorie restriction is just about you know how people who eat more versus people who eat less like high calories or low calories right then there's time restrictions where during what times uh are you >> yeah that's like the premise of intermittent fasting right >> intermittent fasting and then DR is these different uh aspects how people talk about low carbohydrate diet low-fat diet but how can you alter different uh >> the content of the diet Yeah, >> the content of diet.

So, and that's why he talks about he's like there's many ways of combining different ideas from these diets to optimize what's right for you. And his whole idea in this book is, you know, medicine 3.0 where medicine 2.0 is what he calls we're currently practicing is we're it's reactive, right? Someone gets sick, we find out what's wrong with them, we treat it, right?

But medicine 3.0, what he talks about is uh assessing everyone's uh uh biochemistry, personalizing medicine to them and uh be preventative rather than re rather than reactive. So you know um and he talks about the three or four big horsemen that kill people heart disease, cancer and uh uh muscularke disease and neurogenerative disease.

for Alzheimer's and dementia and uh his main theme is how to do things right um right now early on in life and even later on life to prevent those four things that can eventually so >> nice man it sounds like a great book I mean you know it's books like that where you know it's not just reading something that some guy who's famous put out there is like hey do xyz basically a bunch of bold claims right it's it's a lot of claims but it seems like for one they're backed up by real science real data data and also honesty about the strength of that data and then when there isn't real data like you said there's logic behind it but also someone is forthcoming that hey this no study's been done on this but it makes sense because of x y and z reason and then giving concrete examples of how you can tailor stuff like the diet or like exercise because so many like here's the reality I mean doctors are not personal trainers physical therapists or nutritionists right so the canned advice from medicine from the doctor is try to get 30 minutes of aerobic exercise a day, three times a week.

I mean, it's like, okay, but there's more than that. You know what I mean? And I think patients want more than that. So, stuff like this, I think, is is an awesome resource for everybody, your average person to read it and incorporate into their life, but especially even as physicians, I think I mean, I'm I'm going to add this book to my list. It sounds awesome. Um, >> yeah, I think every physician should read this.

You know, one thing that >> really surprised me that I really never thought about is he talks about how Alzheimer's disease and dementia is preventable. Right. right? >> Talk about how there's been numerous studies about how exercise and physical activity and group of people uh really prevents dementia and Alzheimer's. >> Yeah, it's I mean muscle mass and exercise are very neuroprotective. That's the thing for sure.

So I think if any any physician who wants to be a good counselor for their patients uh who wants to educate their patients in easy terms uh Peter Tia provides a lot of good tools a lot of good clear examples to teach patients about lipids about exercise about lipid control about prevention of Alzheimer's disease uh you know how to think about cancer as well and what what cancer does to your body and how to prevent cancer and how to watch out for cancer.

I think there's a lot of good models out there. So I I think uh patients for sure, I mean the general public should read it, but I think especially physicians should uh really put this book on their list and and read about it and and you know use some of the models that he lays out because uh I think it's it's very useful. >> That's great, man. That's an interesting one. >> Interesting one for sure. >> A book that you thought about.

>> Yeah, I mean I'll you know one book that I really like which is totally different than than something like this. It's a book that I read um when I was a teenager. You know, it was to be honest with you, it was one of the rare books that we were read, we had to read in a school curriculum that I actually just loved. I thought it was awesome. Uh it was a book by Bryce Courtourtney uh called The Power of One. Um and I read it for the first time. I've read this book a couple times.

you know, like we were talking about, it resonates with you at different moments in your life, but I read it when [snorts] I was, I think, 14, 15, like a freshman in high school, and it's right around the time when the character in the book is around that, you know, grows up, but is a big chunk of the book is at that same age, like a a middle teenager in that book. And the book, I mean, I'm not going to summarize the whole story. It's it's a long book.

Um, it's historical fiction right around post World War II, aparthide South Africa. So, it's a very tumultuous environment to begin with, right? Whites and blacks, the world war just happened. There's a big population of Europeans over there, the tribal conflicts, and then the story of one boy growing up through that who's relatively an orphan and tries to make something of himself. And it's centered around boxing. And he basically has a dream to become the welterweight champion of the world.

and he goes on that path from when he's a child all the way through, gets different trainers, moves around orphanage to orphanage, boarding school to boarding school, whatever. And just the the way the story is told is awesome. It's very engrossing and I think it's something that almost any teenager can relate to. Uh and it just happened at that time in my life. I was boxing a lot. I've been doing martial arts since I was like 11 years old. Um and I was doing a lot of boxing at that time.

So the boxing aspect really appealed to me because it was a very relatable activity. you know, all the training. He talked about the rigor of that, you know, the discipline you need to have in martial arts. It was awesome. Um, and the story of the boy's life, you know, like I was in an all boys school and the character in the in the book, his name is PK. He was in all boys boarding schools, you know, so that was similar in a way.

Um, and just the struggles, but the dreams he had and wanting to be something more than he really was and finding it in himself. All of that stuff was awesome, especially at that age, right? And then I read it again. I think I read it again when I was in college just cuz I really like the story. Um, and you know, it it hit a little differently cuz I was a little older. I was a little more mature.

Um, but you know, when you're in college, even when you're like 20, 21, 22 years old, I had never really worked. I hadn't lived what I would term like a real life, right? I was always in some sort of an educational bubble or the bubble of like my parents' protection. We're now in the college environment. So, it was very different. Uh whereas the character in this book, he at a very very young age has to fend for himself, which is something I never had to do.

So that was another thing I thought was really interesting is that the idea of someone who's a teenager, basically still a child, but having to forcibly mature right away. Like the social and emotional maturity that is forced upon you in that setting, it's something I never had to really go through, right? I don't think I was immature. I think I was just just any other kid who who grew up with loving parents and in an environment that wasn't dangerous or stressful in that sense.

And so that was something that was foreign to me, but I found it fascinating. >> So >> yeah, it's an interesting idea, you know. Have you seen the movie? >> I did. And honestly, I hated the movie. I thought, but I don't know, man. I I'm like I I don't I don't think I'm a snob, but I think I'm snobbish when it comes to like if I've read a book. I almost always hate the movie because, you know, you create like this imagination and this world. And I don't know, man.

The movie never lives up to it with few exceptions. I I hated this movie, but the book was awesome. >> Yeah. I mean, I remember watching the movie. I think we watched it in um our high school geography class or >> we're learning about or history class when we were learning about >> the aparthide South Africa and that was right. I think uh we watched. So I think when you were talking about this book, I just remembered watching that movie and I remember uh he I think he's he's a white kid, right?

That >> Yeah. Yeah. He's a white kid. Yeah. >> He has a mentor who's teaching boxing and he's a he's a black South African uh man from what I >> Yeah. So he he has a few mentors. One of them is a black South African, which is contentious at that time. Uh but like the kid grows up basically in an environment jumping through homes having like a nanny who's black. His parents were white obviously going to mostly white schools but still boxing in an environment where there's a lot of black fighters.

So he has a good eye in both worlds and he never really grows up racist himself which was very common at that time. So it's like a big thing that he did not grow up racist despite living in aparthide South Africa. Uh which I found was really interesting.

Yeah, because I mean, you know, I think the fact that he he had mentors or or people that he interacted with all his life, you know, the whole idea of aparthide is that you get separated like the two correct they're completely separate from each other and they're not really interacting much with each other.

But what know is when different races and people who differ from each other, they interact more often, see each other more often, get to know each other and you learn from them, you those those kind of ideas, the racist ideas, those xenophobic ideas kind of go away a little bit, right? So >> yeah, it's like being able to almost like seamlessly drift between worlds is is a very difficult um and I I think rare um trait to have and attribute to have.

And you know it kind of defines some of the immigrant experience in any country uh you know whether you're first generation, second generation, whatever you always live kind of in between worlds. Like for us we have a huge community and culture, religion, family ties, friend ties that are like Pakistani and Indian and similarly we have really strong American ties, American roots, American culture and mindset.

Um that that's really well defined in this book between like white and black South Africa. I I thought that was a really cool theme in this book too. >> Yeah, that's very interesting. Another thing that you said I found interesting is the whole idea that we grow up, you know, especially in in the United States pretty sheltered through our teens and 20s. But when you look at history, you know, people used to be very independent very early on in life.

There's [snorts] stories, many stories of kids leaving their house when they're 8, 9 years old, 10 years old, going to become uh, you know, apprentices to different people, learning from them and growing and learning the art instead of going to school or, you know, um, parents weren't making every single decision for them. They were educating themselves, learning from their interactions with other people and they were in the world.

Whereas we do not leave and go in the real world until we're maybe 18 and now even later, right? Maybe sometimes even we're 25, 26 because >> schooling has become so longer. Our parents tend to shelter us more. Uh, you know, I'm noticing more and more parents are starting to make more more major decisions for kids. And sometimes, you know, we've talked about this in the past.

time it's you have to kind of find balance of when you let that um you know cut that cord and let the kid make those decisions for themselves in the real world and grow up right where is that right balance >> yeah I mean it's like impossible to strike but I hear you it's like the the helicoptering by parents has become more and more common or see it seems like it's become more common if you just read about it and watch vid social media videos you know um yeah just let the kids live >> yeah that's interesting book.

You know, I this is not one of the books I thought about, but you know, you talking about South Africa, aparthite South Africa, remind me of another book I read, which was an easy read was Trevor Noah's Born a Crime and >> Yeah, that's a it's a good one. >> Yeah, he he talks a lot about his upbringing and him him um you know, his his dad being a white South African man, black South African woman.

um you know that was an interesting book as well but that's not going to that's not one of the books I thought about but the book that I kind of talk about is you know I was think when I was thinking about these these books to talk about I was thinking okay there's one about health and you know medicine and the other one about wealth and then maybe psychology and mind and um the books I've recently read a lot of books about you know people's relationship with money and wealth and there's a series of books that I've read that I found really interesting.

Two of them are by this author called Morgan Howell. Um okay. It's it's called Psychology of Money and Art of Spending Money. And the other one the last one uh the book is called Die with Zero. It's by Bill Perkins. And these are very interesting books. They define really well u you know the idea and relationship to what money is.

uh you know psychology of money and art of spending uh money uh you know by Morgan Hel they talk about how you know first of all like you know as people grow up they really do not understand what what um it means to be rich versus wealthy right we've talked about that um you know you have a high income but not using it right and not investing properly not saving right and just going to keep blowing away your money uh can lead you you know, completely broke and dependent, right?

And the key theme to a lot of these books is uh wealth truly is um you know, the freedom of your time, ability to say no, right? There was an interesting uh quote that I read in the book and it talked about uh you are truly wealthy when uh the money that you refuse tastes sweeter than the money that you accept. >> Yeah. It's the ability to say no to different uh ideas or work that you have to do because you don't need to do something.

You know, uh a lot of these books talk about, you know, you're it's it's not about um you know, you buying fancy cars or buying buying a fancy house, but buying your time with money. And and buying your time with money is it's it's more important than any of these superficial things. Um, Morgan talks a lot about how a lot of things we do now like buying a car, buying a house. We're truly not doing it for ourselves.

A lot of times we're doing for others to show others or compete with others or or thinking that someone uh is going to be impressed with us. But most of the times people are not truly impressed by you when they see your car, your house. They don't think, "Oh my this this this person is super accomplished. You know, I want to be like him." They just they look at a car, they're like, "Oh, that's an amazing car." you don't even think about the the person that's driving it, you know.

So, they talk about >> Yeah, it's like that that chasing status is just a false game. I mean, it's a game no one wins, you know. >> No one wins. Uh, you know, you can continue to chase status. The guy that makes $100,000 a year always wants the life of a guy who makes $200,000 a year. And the guy who makes $200,000 a year wants the life of a guy who makes $500,000 a year. >> It's never enough. >> Billionaire always wants a billionaire's life. So, you're never going to be satisfied.

You're never going to be happy with what you have if you keep chasing status. Uh, and and the only way to get out of that cycle is to stop focusing on status and focusing on what truly makes you happy and using your money to make yourself happy for the things you like doing. You know, some of the examples he gives is, you know, when you're, you know, everyone loves doing vacations.

you know, when you go out and you uh go on a fancy vacation, you go live stay in a nice resort and and fly first class and you know, it's it's a great way to spend money and no one's telling you not to spend that money. But truly, what's you're really enjoying there is the time that you spend with your loved ones, your friends, your wife, your your kids. That's truly the part that you really enjoyed. You could be taking a much cheaper vacation and still love it.

uh you know because you're spending time with the people that you love rather than all the money that you're spending, right? So it's not a lot of times about the money and and you should always spend money by experiences and uh and you know but if you focus on what's at the at the core of of things is you know why you truly like spending that money then you should might as well do it.

but not because it's going to look cool on Instagram or it's going to look, you know, my my friends or strangers are going to be impressed with what I'm doing, the kind of vacations I'm doing. I think getting out of that mindset is important. >> Yeah, that's cool, man. I I got to read that series of books. I mean, I, you know, there's so many books on wealth and mindset and all that stuff.

But this one seems pretty interesting just in the way it's framed um to focus on just that experiences and how to look at that what you said the difference between wealth and riches um rather than just being a slave to a slave of your time right like if you really want to make more money you're basically just giving away your time in exchange for the money and you can only make real wealth and be free when it's not tied to your time you're no longer your rate limiting step I mean that's a huge thing that that's why it's called financial freedom you're you're free of your finances.

>> Yeah. The the third one that I mentioned was die with zero, right? And the whole idea of that is um at the time that he talks about different, you know, every chapter is a different strategy of why you should die with zero. The whole idea is that when you die, you should have no money left because you really don't you really don't need money in your grave, right? Once you're dead, all that money is useless now.

Um, so he talks about how you should kind of learn how to save money and not learn how to build wealth, but also spend it. You know, don't just be so focused on hoarding money all your life and and and keep hoarding and hoarding and hoarding and building these massive reserves of money into your death. Uh, and how he gets a lot of criticism from some of the friends. Hey, what about your family? What about your kids?

Why don't you do not do you not want to leave any money for your your family or your kids? And his whole idea is so if you really want to help your family, your kids, you know, your kids, your wife, your your brother, your sister, give them money during while you're alive. You know, if you have enough money that that's that's going to last you forever into your death, why not give them money earlier when they need it, right?

Most of the people they're living into their 80s, 90s, uh by the time they die, their kids are in their late 60s or mid60s. did you what are they going to do with that money now?

Maybe they could have used that money back in their 20s and 30s when they were trying to make the down payment or pay off their loans or you know um >> yeah you can give someone a really big leg up earlier on in life rather than letting them struggle kind of figure it out and make it and then like you said when they're 60 years old and their parents pass away at 90 that's when they get a big lump sum and it's like well I mean it's nice but you didn't really need it you know.

>> Yeah didn't really need it. The money could have saved a lot of different headaches. You the money could have been invested early into the market and compounded and growth. So the whole idea is, you know, spend money. You know, don't just hoard it. Spend money. Um, you know, he talks about how he uh for his 45th birthday. Um, you know, he this guy made a lot of money. He actually lived in lives in Houston. Uh, and he made a bunch of money in energy trading.

And you know what he did at at his 45th birthday, he flew all his closest friends and family down to uh an island in the Caribbean and paid for their whole vacation and they all spent a whole week there together for his 45th birthday. >> Dude, that's pretty awesome. >> That's pretty awesome. So, he talks about how like, you know, he thought about, okay, why am I doing that for my 45th birthday and now my 50th birthday?

But he's so he's so glad he did this cuz his dad was not alive at his 50th birthday. His mom was not able to travel anymore. So, he's like, I did that for my 45th birthday cuz I thought about it. I I spent a massive amount of money, but I did it. And those are the best memories I have with my mom, my dad, my friends. All of them were together in one place. And when I think of heaven, I think of that time. And there's >> Oh, for sure.

I mean, man, can you imagine like, you know, if you think the older you get, you know, the moments if you don't live like in the same city as your family, the moments you actually have with your family are are so fleeting. I mean, it's like a weekend every 3 months or four months if you're lucky. And you know how many little blocks or three four month weekends do you have in your whole lifespan and their lifespan?

I mean you know it I saw this one graph online which is like as time goes on you spend so much time initially like all the time with your family like your parents your siblings and over time it just plummets and really it's like I mean you you you will see them collectively you know once you are in your mid30s and have your own kids onwards maybe like 25 if you're lucky 30 total more times which is crazy to think you saw him every day every day. So, I bet that was a phenomenal experience.

I maybe one of the best like weeks of that guy's life. >> He's surrounded by his wife, kids, parents, and all of his closest friends like all together for a week. No outside interference or influence or worries. I mean, that would >> that would be awesome. >> Yeah. You're not you're not worried about, you know, who's calling you and you're just there spending time. Yeah, you said that the graph the stat is that you spend 80% of the time with your kids >> until they're 13 years old.

After that, it's 20% of the time, >> which is nuts, dude. It's crazy. >> The I see my my son and daughter every day, all day long, right? I But this is the most time I'll spend with them. And after they're turn 13, 14, 15, the time I spend with them is going to go down and down. Maybe they'll see them maybe, you know, if I'm lucky, once a week. uh if I'm lucky, like once a month, but most people do not see their kids that often, right?

Uh so spending your money wisely uh yes uh saving, being good about saving money, investing money, growing your wealth, but also spending money because what are you going to do with money? What what are you going to do with all the money when you're dead, right? You money with own experiences, spending time with your family, >> um you know, doing stuff your kids when they're older and need that money rather than when you're dead. and they don't need that money.

So that book was also pretty awesome. Uh you know I I really enjoyed the idea. It was a shift in mindset and same with the Morgan Housing books especially. I enjoyed the psychology of money.

uh for me it wasn't as relevant because I was already doing a lot of those things and you know in terms of uh investing and saving and you know all that but the art of spending money um the art of spending I I think this book's called art of spending uh that book kind of made me shift my mindset a little bit because it showed me that uh you know the difference between your being being wealthy and this the status chasing idea uh you know that's something we need to get out Yeah. No, that's true.

And you know that that's interesting. We we were talking about this a little bit offline, too, that you know, a lot of these books that come in the category of self-help or self-improvement, um, when you read them when you're younger, like early 20s, mid20s, whatever, I find that they're often much more relevant, much more telling, and you can be like, "Oh, wow." Okay.

But when you get older and you've lived life and you you know you I don't know you've had relationships, you got married, you have kids of your own, you're in the workplace, you see office dynamics, you have social relationships that come and go. You've lived enough life and you have enough life experiences accumulated of your own. You've had your own successes and failures and you know yourself, I think better than you did, you know, 10, 15 years ago.

A lot of these self-help, self-improvement books, you kind of read them and you're like, "Okay, well, I didn't really gain much from this book because I was already doing X, Y, and Z or this is already like just a reality of my life." Uh, that's not every book, right? Like no one does everything perfectly. No one is like no one has got life down.

But I I find that a lot of these self-help, self-improvement books, it kind of falls into that category, which is why probably what you said, the art of spending resonated with you more than the psychology of money, right? because perhaps you were already, you know, working for a while. You already have savings accounts. You already have IAS. You already have outside investment. You know what I mean? Like that just happens as you get older. Uh if you're interested in it.

So sometimes those books are less relevant, but others like The Art of Spending. Um they they can change your mindset or give you a new framework to think about. >> Yeah, for sure. There's there's a whole category of self-help books that, you know, people recommend so much. you know, there's the subtle art and then there's seven effectives of highly, you know, seven habits of highly effective >> successful people. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah.

A lot of those books I feel that I would read and I was like you know I'm already doing that and I realized that yeah those books would have been great when I was a you know late teenager early 20s and you know the the habits that I've built then you know luckily [snorts] have you know brought me to this stage of my life through different struggles you know but those books would have been very effective at that time but now the books that I really find insightful are very different than those self-help books right there are there's certain self-help books that that really teach me a lot of things but they're now different types of books.

I'm I'm trying to learn more about um you know in terms of uh growing my business, not starting a business but growing a business um what to do with the money, how to be smart about it rather than you know just blindly uh and and even more about philosophy and you know deeper meaning of life as well. So I think those books are much more insightful to me now than you know they would have been maybe in my 20s and 20 in my 20s. I wouldn't read uh the art of spending money or die with zero.

I would have read that and I was like I don't have any money to >> Yeah.

It's like well this is for future homaya to figure out right [laughter] >> so I think there are certain self-help books that are good for certain stages of your life right >> for sure for sure I mean you know a book that like maybe contrary to that you know I guess it's in this whole genre of self-help self-improvement is uh 48 laws of power uh by Robert Green um I think that book honestly is relevant and can remain relevant in different ways throughout your entire life because you know the principles and the historical context and stories that Green brings into this book in each of these 48 different chapters these 48 different laws I mean they're awesome like for example I mean each chapter is a different title each chapter is a new law in this book like one law for example is never outshine the master another law is um be mysterious and basically be unpredictable another one is let your actions speak rather than engaging in argument.

You know, like there's all of them, right? But all of them, you know, each chapter is like, you know, 10, 15, 20 pages and it's nothing but stories from history of famous figures who have succeeded or failed, which is what I find is honestly sometimes more interesting.

the failure of the laws and the consequences of what happens when you don't uphold these laws because they they've held true time and time again in personal relationships in um like male female interaction like seduction type relationships not just business interactions and friendships um in terms of courting someone and being a suitor and you know all that stuff there's a lot of that in the book there's a lot of business success military success military failures uh battles And then the courtroom, you know, in like Renaissance Europe, that was a big stage, right, where all these aristocrats would gather.

So the the context and the characters that Green brings in and tons of research and it's very dense book with a lot of details. Um I I think is awesome. Anything from if you want to have a venture and you have an idea and you need to get money, how do you do that? How do you convince people? How do you gather um wealth together to make something happen?

If you want to have a negotiation at work, you want a promotion, you want to higher salary, you want uh another employee to work with you to offload you, how do you do that? How do you execute that? What is a successful way to go about that? Um, and the book has a lot of themes, you know, it's almost like um manipulative has a negative context, right?

The tone of that word is usually negative, but it it basically the book allows you, if you use these laws appropriately, to manipulate your surroundings, your relationships, and people to like get what you want. That's really what the book is about. The power is getting what you want, right? And so that's what the book is about. And I think it's wonderful because it's one of those books that you don't necessarily read it cover to cover.

You can kind of jump in and out or if you're going through something, your boss is giving you trouble at work, you have a co-orker who just pisses you off all the time and it's a regular thing and makes you annoyed. Um there's some issue you're having with your kid's coach, you know, whatever it is. You can reference certain parts of the book and see like, oh, okay, that's how this happened or oh, I shouldn't do this. this is a negative consequence. I think it's I find the book to be awesome.

My uncle actually gave it to me as a gift when I graduated from high school. Um, and I read it at that time. I've read it probably, you know, in snippets depending on what was relevant so many times in my life. I I really really like it a lot. It's very well written. >> That's amazing. You know, the you know that book is abandoned prisons because uh you don't want inmates to read those books and kind of use those those strategies for manipulation as well.

And basically they would create like a successful enterprise within prison itself. >> Yeah. Yeah. So I think you know those that's one of the book that shows up on every single list when you look up like >> oh yeah >> top business or books in terms of and a lot of I think Robert Green's ideas go back to stoicism too.

uh you know I think uh there's this whole idea that I you know the whole philosophicism that dates back to like the early uh Roman times uh you know with um Marcus Aurelius and you know Epictitus Epictitus or you know there's a lot of stoic books uh I don't know how to say that uh but there's a lot of stoic books and a lot of the I think Robert Green has some influence from those books as well So, uh, but these these, um, laws of power, I think, uh, you know, it's one of those book that you can just read, uh, a chapter a night or just randomly pick up a random chap, uh, you know, page and open it up and and read about it.

There's a lot of interesting ideas in there for sure. >> Tons, man. Tons of great ideas. And, you know, just like the the people, you know, anyone who's been through a history class through high school, you know, you're going to know facts and figures, right? And dates and battles and and people's names.

That's like uh I don't know for better or for worse that's what like school history focuses on but it's the book the 40 loves power is like a who's who of like the famous figures throughout history I mean anyone and everyone generals military leaders and dictators country leaders um famous philosophers scientists artists sculptors like all of these people are mentioned in the book and you know they're famous for a reason they were masters at their craft but they were really also masters at getting what they want and uh converting relationships to their benefit.

I mean that's that's how you become a well-known figure in history and that that's what the book is about. It's basically how these people created a successful personality around them.

um it became the other >> those who succeeded with those who failed right that's that's the interesting part and it's always even in business school like you know when you do an MBA or take business classes you there's a lot of learning from not just the businesses or the people that succeeded but people who failed right there's a lot of things there's a lot of learning and failure and you [snorts] know there's a lot of different ideas of failure in that book too that hey this failed because they did not use this law or use this law incorrectly or did not follow these cert principles.

So those are some great lessons as well. >> Oh, for sure. For sure they are. >> Now, speaking of kind of, you know, a book off the beaten path, this is a very interesting book that I read uh and this was around I think I read this book when I was uh I believe in residency or maybe like six, seven, seven or eight years ago. It's a book by Michael Polland. He's a an author.

He's a Harvard professor that wrote a lot of books about cooking and uh you know about nutrition in the beginning but then he wrote this very interesting book and it's called how to change your mind. Uh it's it's all about uh the science behind psychedelics and what where the psychedelic movement is going towards.

Uh it that book kind of blew me away cuz all my life you know and and you know different um news articles and you know media you would always think of psychedelics as something very dangerous harmful a drug that can cause you to go psychotic and and lose it and kill a bunch of people.

you know that's how in history uh a lot of psychedelics were presented but there's a whole there was a whole movement behind psychedelics and now there's a new movement behind psychedelics as well and he talked about that uh it's very interesting because it's not just he talks about the science of psychedelics so he talks about different science the research behind it what what we know what we don't know why the research has not been done and where the research is being done but he also >> uh does uh a personal kind of blog and goes through each trip of each psychedelic and and talks about his experience and kind of documents it very vigorously.

He talks about his trip with LSD, his trip with suicide and with TNT.

Um there's a lot lot of different uh interesting principles that one of the principles he talks about is you know um what as we grow older right when we're born is our our our minds are like that fresh snow uh you know on a ski slope you know when snow just falls and everything's just fresh and as we grow older we we see people we build biases we build ego right over time uh and it's kind of like a ski slope uh you know getting these tracks and marks and getting getting hardened, right?

You build certain perspectives on life, right? And and what psychedelics kind of do is a fresh set of snow completely on on on your brain uh you know uh that kind of refreshes you and opens your mind and those previous biases, previous thought processes and mental networks you had uh of how to think about it. just completely changes it and makes you think outside the box uh and gives you a new perspective on life and death as well.

Uh it makes you more connected with nature and there's um you know truth it was interesting because uh a lot of the harms there there can be harmed psychedelics that people who are who are um you know prone to uh schizophrenia or any other psychotic disorders can really get harmed from use of psychedelics. Uh but a safe use monitored use of psychedelics can be very profound for a lot of people.

Uh and there's there's countless examples in history of many very successful people who've created many amazing things in the world have used psychedelics.

uh you know the Beatles, Steve Jobs, a lot of the Silicon Valley uh uh tech startup you know it's very common to do micro doing of of psychedelics in in Silicon Valley right so uh psychedelics have a role there's a lot of research being done um so this is a very interesting book to me and the the way he documents each each encounter with LSD DNT and uh psilocybin was is interesting >> that's really interesting I mean especially you know, he gives his own personal account.

Um, for one, the honesty, you know, involved in doing that, given his reputation and his standing, his credentials and all the basically being like, "Yo, I just went and tripped balls and here's how it felt, right?" Uh, I think that's wonderful. I think people that share that information about themselves without worrying about consequences, it adds credibility and it adds trust, I think, to the reader, uh, that this guy is legit.

Look what he did and he's telling us about it and he gives an unfiltered version. Um but I think that's really respect respectable. Um the other thing too Oh yeah, go ahead. What were you gonna say? >> No, the one thing he talks about is very interesting.

He there's experiment during I think it was in uh at NYU I believe uh and they did this experiment where there's people who were dying um because of cancer and they were in terminal stages of cancer and they did this experiment where they they did um they treated them with psychedelics and by going through that trip um and that the whole journey of using psychedelics uh their fear of death just completely went away and it was very well documented about how uh these people who were in terminal stage of life at first their their fears about death, complete dying, going away uh were very high on a scale.

And once they went through the trip, they talked about how they they felt this a big bigger sense of purpose. They felt connected with the world. Uh they and they weren't afraid of dying anymore. And that that's pretty much it was very strong in every single every single one of these individuals. Um same thing with uh PE people who were struggling with PTSD. You know PTSD is kind of those hardwired mental networks that you know our body creates because of prior trauma as well.

And use the psychedelics. There's some early uh promising data that you know might get rid of those hardened. It's kind of like putting fresh snow on your brain where it gets rid of those mental pathways you created in the past that trigger physical responses. Right. So >> yeah, it can be like a proper reset that your brain needed. >> Yeah, it's a proper reset.

So let's talk [clears throat] about psychedelics being like a a reset on your brain where you're able to completely look at life in a new way.

Um there was an interesting article that I I read um I think it was the New Yorker uh and it was called your priest on uh psychedelics and this is and they took a bunch of religious leaders uh a lot of um um you know mostly Christian uh some Jewish and and even the Muslim um religious uh scholar uh and they went through a psychedelic u journey and later these people reported a stronger connection with God um stronger connection to spirituality and even stronger belief in in their particular faith um and it's a very interesting idea the psychedelics uh make you more spiritual uh make you appreciate nature more the world more uh and you feel a deeper connection with um you know a higher being uh while being on psychedelics and after psychedelics >> you know what's interesting is like the the broad range of people and their backgrounds that have been documented using psychedelics with success.

I it there it's also you just mentioned these religious leaders and the same thing with like musicians. I mean there's so many musicians and artists and stuff that have reported honestly that they view psychedelics. So the religious leaders gained further in touch with God and their belief system, right? The artists expanded their art and almost accentuated their art and their artistic capabilities.

Like just like Silicon Valley guys, they were able to do better at their business, their software, their coding, their ideas, their execution. It almost like in a way like hones and sharpens your ability to apply yourself to whatever it is you're doing, right? Uh which is very interesting.

It's almost like our mindset is that the medications or drugs that would make the mind hyperfocused like a singularity of purposes like caffeine or ADHD medication like rolin and stuff but that may not necessarily be true right and I'm making like a claim unsubstantiated but I'm just thinking aloud what if there's other areas of the brain that are very strongly involved with achieving what one's goal is not necessarily like intelligence or focus because it's not solely those things that make someone successful in their craft, right?

Whether it's success in terms of your ability to believe and get in touch with God and your religion, which is what religious leaders are trying to do. Make [snorts] real music that resonates with people, which is what artists are trying to do. And then have a successful startup company that becomes something, which is what the Silicon Valley people are trying to do. Just success and like knowing the path in your craft.

Maybe something like this, you know, an outside of mind experience, like a new reset in a way, like the fresh snow on a mountain. That's what these psychedelics can do. >> Yeah. And you know what it does is, and he talks about this in the book a little bit, where it doesn't really make you focus per se, but it allows you to kind of uh, you know, as you grow, you build an ego within you where you start thinking of yourself as very important.

And you know, um, your own ideas and your thoughts are what matter. And what it does, it completely resets that. And what all the ideas and beliefs you had about something, it completely goes away. And then you look at something, a new idea, a new perspective in a different light, in a different way. And that's why most people who do these psychedelics safely, they usually have someone supervising them and leading them in the way. Right?

You don't want to do uh some of these psychedelics and that's how what the experts say that a lot of the psychedelic trips should be done by someone who's guiding you and you discuss with them the purpose why you're doing it and what is what what are some of your goals from it and and through with those goals in mind they guide you in that trip to unlock those ideas that are somewhere deep within your brain right as you go through life you you you learn information somewhere deep within your mind that information is hidden uh and with the use of the psychedelics you're able to unlock unlock that and look at it in a different way.

But you need someone guiding you through this process. >> You need you need a shaman. You need a shaman. >> That's a, you know, it's, you know, uh, it's a, it's an interesting idea. That book really opened my mind to it. And I think, uh, you know, uh, it's a, it's a, it's an area that we really need to study and look into, especially with the the growing epidemic of mental health in this in this country, you know. >> For sure, man. I mean, that that's been like studied.

I mean, you know, the literature is growing on it, but like ketamine micro doing is like a real thing or at least is becoming even more of a thing. But I I've been reading some about it like for treatment refractory depression like that doesn't respond to your typical SSRIs, SNRIs. I mean, ketamine micro doing again monitored and making sure you know it's the right patient, it has shown benefit. So, I mean, I think it's scratching the surface.

These are things that haven't been allowed to be researched for a long time and who knows what's going to come of it. >> Yeah. Everyone should read that book. Yeah, >> that's cool. >> What's your last one? >> That's cool. >> The last one uh the last one is another fiction book. It's kind of a historical fiction crime related book. It's uh The Power of the Dog. So I the theme for Adil today is all three of the books I've said is power, the power of one, 40 laws of power and the power of the dog.

Uh but the power of the dog is by Don Winslow. And it's basically a story about um this DEA agent um who basically works on the Texas Mexico border and within Mexico itself working against the cartel trying to break up their drug rings. And I mean the book basically is just that. It's about a huge expose.

um ton of research that Winsler did to write this book about the cartel itself, the different areas in Mexico they operate, the routes they take, how they smuggle stuff into Texas, California, um Florida, the amount of technology that is used by the cartels. I mean, they are advanced. They're one of the most successful business enterprises in the world. Uh whether they're criminal or not, I mean, it's very impressive. And how brutal it is and how like people are butchered.

I mean, there's just no regard for anything other than the end goal, passing the product, making the money, and the chaos and violence that's strewn in its path.

and how, you know, the main character along with his, you know, cadre of DA agents and mercenaries, all this stuff, they try their best to to take the cartel down slowly but surely working their way up and how they are so understaffed and undermilitarized in comparison to what the cartel has because like money talks and the like the correlation that he brings with real history that's happened between America and Mexico, the whole war on drugs, the US and CIA known involvement in Latin America, regime change, I mean, all of it, it's very, very accurate.

Um, and I think that's what the book has caught on so well. It's a three-part series um, about this about how the cartel has just grown and grown and grown and the roots it's taken within America because like we are the biggest drug users on the planet that's just a fact. We as a country the book is just awesome. It's very very well written. I mean it's it I don't know maybe it's like 300 some pages. I think I read the whole thing in a couple days. It's one of those books you can't even put down.

So more than like resonating with me in any way, it's not that I gained anything from the book other than honestly just enjoyment. I thought it was an awesome read. It's like there was a movie not on this book itself, but the movie Sakario with Benio Del Toro. It's a very similar type of book as that movie is. Right. It tells a similar story. Um so that that's kind of what the book is about. But I loved it. I think it's one of the best best books and most engrossing books I've ever read.

>> Well, I'll have to give that. I haven't I haven't this is the first time I heard of that one. So that's man, it's just such a fun book, especially if you're like, you know, I've always thought the cartel and that whole thing was just so interesting.

Um, that it's just like such a criminal thing, but at the same time, they're so advanced and it's just like >> I mean, depending on, you know, what you Google and what you read, some sources say that the cartel makes more money collectively on planet Earth than like the oil and gas industry. I mean, it's absurd the scale of drug use by human beings, right? So, it's just like a thing that's tied to us as humans at this point. Um, it's crazy. >> It's amazing.

Yeah, there's so many books out there, man. Then that's why I struggled with this with this with this episode because I had to really uh kind >> It's so hard to pick. [laughter] >> So hard to pick. It's so hard to pick. You had asked me tomorrow or you have to might have picked different books, but today these [laughter] are that I thought about and you know, right? I think we should do this uh uh two docs book club maybe every every six months or every quarter. >> Yeah, every so often. I'm down.

>> I think it's a good idea to kind of talk about different ideas in books cuz this these books uh really bring out different ideas that we can kind of you know uh use in our everyday life as as physicians as as fathers as as uh you know bros. >> Yeah. So >> bros are good books maybe. Let's let's wait till the next uh two dos book club. Uh maybe you know a few months from now we'll talk about maybe five another six five to six different books. >> Yeah, there you go.

If anyone in the who's watching has any suggestions, throw them out there in the comments. We'd love to see some some new book recommendations. But uh we'll see you guys next time. Thanks for tuning in to two docs one mic.